Key insights from the conversation

Virtual Communication and Presence

• Rachel shares her unique journey from professional ballet dancer to AI startup CEO, bringing insights about nonverbal communication and presence

• She defines presence as the alignment of nonverbal, verbal, and vocal behaviors with intention, enabling authentic connections

• How virtual communication requires intentional effort to maintain presence and connection

• The challenge of casual approaches to virtual meetings post-pandemic

Technical and Practical Tips

• Avoiding virtual backgrounds when possible to prevent distractions

• Turning off self-view during video calls to enhance focus on others

• The importance of visible hands in building trust

• Proper framing and setup before meetings

• The value of taking short breaks between meetings, even just 1-2 minutes of walking

Communication Strategy

• The importance of choosing the right communication channel (video, phone, email, chat)

• Overuse of video calls and when other channels might be more appropriate

• Preparation and practice, even for experienced professionals

• How high-level professionals understand the value of preparation

• Setting clear objectives and intentions before meetings

AI and Technology in Communication

• Virtual Sapiens, an AI-based communication coaching platform

• How AI can serve as a "supercharged mirror" for communication behaviors

• Challenges with AI adoption in corporate environments

• Privacy concerns and the balance between innovation and security

• Insights about automated meeting recordings and their impact on communication

Trust and Rapport in Virtual Settings

• How to build trust in virtual environments

• The importance of team agreements about communication norms

• Camera-off situations and the need for open discussion about preferences

• The impact of nonverbal cues on trust-building

Future Trends and Challenges

• The unique pattern of AI tool adoption (consumer-first rather than business-first)

• Corporate challenges with AI implementation and security

• The tension between innovation and regulation in business settings

• Exciting developments in specialized AI applications, including healthcare communication

Critical Thinking and Curiosity

• The importance of developing critical thinking skills in an AI-driven world

• Curiosity and questioning of information from all sources

• The need for careful evaluation of AI tools and their appropriate use

Full transcript

Here is the full conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here’s also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn live.

Roberto: Hi, Rachel.

Rachel: Hi, Roberto.

Roberto: Great to see you again.

Rachel: good to see you too. Happy New Year.

Roberto: I'm super excited to do this, live with you because we were planning this for a long time, and it's the first of 2025. So it's very special for me too. I would also like to thank the people who is connecting to, to this live event.

And, thank you to the people who is connecting, of course, and of course, to you for your time, because I know how the beginning of the year usually is very hectic. This is no different. thank you so much, Rachel, for finding the time.

Thanks. Thank you also for the people, because time is the only thing that we cannot get back so we have to make the most out of it and make it worth. We are not going to interact live with the people, but we invite everyone who is listening to put any question that they may have in the chat in the middle of the conversation we are going to check the chat, but for the beginning we are just having the conversation you and I and then we'll go back.

First of all, I would like to make a little introduction of how we met, because it's really interesting. It's, one of the beautiful things of, communicating virtually you are in Boston.

I'm in Barcelona. we met in May, 2023, thanks to a leadership program in which you were the facilitator of a workshop which was amazing. And then we connected. We kept in touch. we both love the topic of new ways of work and communication, we said, why don't make this, interactive live event and talk about these things? I'm super excited to do this. And my first question for you will be, since I didn't do any spoiler, what's your story, Rachel, and what brings you to this world of virtual communication and all the projects that you have?

Rachel: Yeah, great. thanks for having me. I think it's always really fun to get to share a conversation that we would maybe privately, but live with our audiences. So what a great opportunity. my story is a little, atypical, currently I'm co founder and CEO of a company called Virtual Sapiens, we use AI to help people improve their communication and communication confidence.

As a CEO of an AI startup, it's a very fast paced world. And it's a really fascinating blend between, you know, AI cutting edge AI technology and foundational coaching principles and communication science. where I came from is, interesting in that I used to be a professional ballet dancer.

So I have a performance background, and what's unique about ballet is that it's all nonverbal, none of the dancers are talking. It's all body language, it's all presence. And that for me is a big theme in my career, even though my career on paper seems all over the place.

The theme of being able to communicate effectively and developing body awareness so that you know your behaviors are pairing with what is coming out of your mouth. That's when we're at our most effective as a communicator, especially when we're trying to communicate virtually, that becomes even more important,

And that's a lot of the work we're doing at Virtual Sapiens.

Roberto: I'm so curious and we'll go deeper, I'm sure, in the conversation on that. there is one thing that you mentioned which reminds me of your definition of presence. Can you go a little bit more deeper?

Rachel: Yeah. So there are a few things.

Presence is a fascinating concept and people have different definitions of what it means, I like to view presence as when our full expression, being nonverbal, verbal and vocal behaviors, aligns with our intention and through that we're able to authentically connect with others. The main tenets of that definition are expression, alignment, intention, and authenticity,

oftentimes what can happen when people are communicating is that their intention may be one thing, but their delivery may be something else. And then there's a disconnect and the message you're wanting or intending to share is not the one that you're actually sending,

It's not landing with your audience. as a result, we haven't had the impact as communicators that we're looking to have.

Roberto: Yeah. and it's beautiful because you mentioned one thing, which is the awareness. sometimes we are not even aware of the message that we are sending.

for example, your background is amazing and I see a lot of intention in putting the background, which is not the virtual background for if someone is wondering is this a real one or not? It's real. And you put a lot of intentions because you want. To give a message, which is aligned with what you're going to say.

So what do you think is the most overlooked thing or the thing that we are not aware because we just don't know?

Rachel: I think there's a lot of things that we overlook. Especially virtually, there has been a level of casualness adopted, as a factor of, you know, going through the pandemic.

It was very difficult. It was very traumatic for many people in terms of not having an option other than video to connect. video can be an exhausting channel of communication, especially if you're not using it properly. now, post COVID, when there's a blend of communicating in person, but a lot of communicating over video, it's amazing to see that, people aren't taking these opportunities of virtual connection for what they are.

And people still are showing up in a way that doesn't represent themselves properly. And at the end of the day, that's the issue. How do you want people to perceive you? How do you want to show up? What is the presence you want to have?

And is the way you're showing up aligning with that?

Roberto: Exactly. It's the intention again. What's my goal for this meeting? Do I want to have a casual meeting? Will it be a formal meeting? Are we on the same level? Are there differences? Do I want to reduce the differences? There are so many things. And one thing that you also mentioned is coaching.

This reminds me of the role of a coach, which is to show the person how things are coming across just to be a mirror. So I show you this, now you become aware and you decide what to do. We are not telling smile more, just smile because you have to smile all the time. No, not at all. It's, what do I want to share?

If I'm sharing bad news, You don't have to smile, And if you're saying happy new year, maybe you have to be more, whatever, or maybe put the background. So, yeah. And this brings me also to one question, which is, why do you think this is so important for everyone, not just for company and right this moment?

Rachel: I'm so glad you asked because It feels like AI is just coming at us from every single angle. Different companies have different work policies around whether you're showing up physically or not. Communication remains the number one most important skill to develop as a human working with other humans.

And not only, is it important because that's how we can ensure progress is happening and that's how we can make sure people are on the same page. But also that's how we can differentiate ourselves as individuals. Because if we throw these tenets of communication out the window and we're like, it doesn't matter, I'll just sort of show up, like it doesn't, my framing doesn't matter, I'll just throw on whatever t shirt, if we keep saying this thing like it doesn't matter, we end up lowering the experience across the board and as a result, it's, a detriment to everyone's time, right?

If we're not investing in understanding how we want to communicate. how we want to show up, how we want our messages to land. We're just wasting so much time.

Roberto: Yeah. and also reminds me of what you say that usually when there is a problem, the root cause, very often, is communication.

Rachel: Oh yeah.

Roberto: So, now we're talking about face to face through a medium, which is Zoom or whatever, but the same apply with emails, the same apply with chat. We have so many channels and being intentional and choosing the channel. Sometimes you can write a message on chat.

Sometimes you may want to use an email. Sometimes you may want to call. And sometimes you may want to make a video call. Adapt to the other person. What's their preferred way of communication?

Maybe they get exhausted at so many calls. Maybe you have to just forget about all the things and just make a phone call.

Rachel: Absolutely. channel selection or channel intention. This is another thing that happened during the pandemic people were doing video calls for every single thing. that's a mismatch in strategy or a lack thereof.

You're not using the channel properly. video is very powerful. For moments where you want to be interacting with someone else, seeing how they're reacting to what you're saying, rebuilding trust and rapport But if it's like a quick check in a quick update, it doesn't have to necessarily be a video.

If it's a huge company wide update, maybe a one way video would be more effective than having every single person have to show up on video knowing that you can only see nine people at a time anyways, right?

Roberto: Yeah. And you mentioned one thing, which is building trust and report. This is so important.

What do you think is the challenge of building trust and rapport virtually? And maybe if doing this virtually has some upside. If that, what's the upside?

Rachel: I think one of the biggest barriers, so I'll start by saying, I think that it's absolutely possible to build trust and rapport over video.

Virtual Sapiens is a remote first company, and yet we have many clients and customers who Trust us deeply and we have wonderful rapport with and we have very successful relationships as a result many of whom I've never met in Person you and I Roberto right I think we have a fantastic friendship and relationship and it's been 100 percent virtual

Roberto: Yes,

Rachel: and I think the biggest barrier to that actually comes from a lack of expectations and skill

Education training that supports being able to use this channel effectively. Because it's very hard to build trust and rapport with a team. If only three out of six are showing up on video. There's something very unsettling about having a conversation with someone over video when they don't have their video on.

Now, if that person's not comfortable showing up on video for a number of reasons, that needs to be discussed, there are a number of reasons why they might not be comfortable, but it should be discussed and understood in terms of why they're not showing up on video versus all of the things that might start flying around your head when the other person doesn't show up and you don't know why.

Of course, you're going to go to more negative things like, oh, they don't respect me. They don't respect this meeting. They don't care. It doesn't matter to them. Right? And that negative self talk just tends to, really go rampant when you're not getting any feedback. Where does trust, trust has no place if you're not able to interact with that person on equal footing.

Roberto: Absolutely. And this reminds me of one thing, that it's, an amazing practice, especially for virtual teams, which is to make a team agreement. How do we want to communicate? Are there any barriers? Maybe that person has sloppy Wi Fi at home. They cannot connect. They're shaking all the time.

They put video it won't work maybe you don't know maybe they're moving to some place and they have the mobile or whatever and so this is again goes to the beginning. How do we want to relate to each other? And if we have disagreement. Okay. I want everyone with the camera on. Okay. If you don't, you can't say why then I'm not making stories in my head.

Rachel: And it goes back to your point, Roberto, of like, at the end of the day, it's still communication. There's so much more to a communication event than the event itself. how have people been prepared for that event? What dialogue has happened to make sure everyone comes into the event, knowing what to expect and what is expected of them, right?

So there's a very high level. And this is the same for in person meetings though, right? Like if we rewind to before COVID, it's not like, meetings were not a problem, meetings were still a big challenge for companies because people were spending all day in relatively unproductive meetings or meetings that didn't need to happen, meetings that could have been an email.

Roberto: Yeah. And it reminds me of one thing, which you remember, To have a meeting, you just have a click and maybe you wing it, but then you think, would I ever wing an in person meeting? No, I probably will prepare. I will go there five minutes before. I will make sure that I have my time and I will be in the right space.

I will go to the bathroom. I will have my glass of water, all this kind of thing, all the preparation. This brings up one super important thing besides the training, which is essential. The preparation. What do you think is so important about preparing for a meeting? Which tips maybe you could give to the people who are listening to this conversation?

Rachel: Yeah, it's interesting. Preparation and practice, I think are two of the most difficult things for people to do because it, requires extra time and a lot don't feel like they have extra time. sometimes I think there's this intermediary period between being a professional and then being the highest level professional.

And when you're the highest level professional, you actually understand the value of personal practice and preparation. But when you're in this kind of middle tier, sometimes people make allowances that then affect the outcome of their work. In terms of preparing for something, I go back to my experience as a dancer There's always a certain amount of experience and skill that you can fall back on and trust once you're an experienced professional.

However, in order for you to know that you're showing up with your best foot forward and able to handle unexpected things that may arise during that meeting, you have to clarity in terms of the main messages and the main goals what do you want to make sure your audience or your participants.

Leave that 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour with, how can you make sure that that one point or those three points are being hammered repeatedly over the course of that hour? what is the structure of this meeting going to be anyways? And what is your role in it? Just understand having clarity around the role that you're going to have in the meeting.

And what you would like your audience to leave with in terms of what you've imparted. Whether it's five minutes, you can just go over that quickly. If it's a bigger deal, if it's a keynote, et cetera, you're going to have to spend a lot more time on that. it's all relative, to, the number of times that you might be doing this meeting or this communication event, your level of comfort and experience with it, and the level of uniqueness it has for you.

Roberto: It's somehow reminds me of what's the outcome that I want. Yeah, this meeting, what do I want the people to take out from here? And then again going back one thing they would also add, which is very easy, and it's like even

two minutes. If we have two minutes in between one meeting and the other, we can just walk. Just even one minute walking can change your state of mind completely.

Rachel: Yeah.

Roberto: And do a briefing and think, how do I want to show up to this meeting? How do I want these people to remember me?

How do I want to be seen? And that combined with the objective. So I have this objective, this is my goal. And this is how I want to come across. And I prepare and I breathe, which always, by the way, we forget to breathe. Especially on video.

Rachel: Yes. being on video can feel like an out of body experience.

You forget that you have this physical presence, in the program that I run. With IMD and most of my programs, I do what I call a physical anchoring exercise, Which is exactly what you said, it can be 30 seconds, and you can do it while you're in the meeting itself, a deep breath in and out, pressing your feet into the floor,

Opening up your posture. There are all these little things we can do to, bring ourselves back into our bodies, bring ourselves back into the present moment, take a breath, right? Especially if we are in. a meeting where maybe our sympathetic nervous system is more triggered, And our heart rate is rising, or maybe we're getting sweaty palms.

These are messages your body is sending you saying like, hey, we're a little stressed, we're a little nervous. while it's unrealistic to expect to never be stressed or nervous in a meeting, what is very powerful is to know how to handle yourself. in moments like that so that you can regain control that's what you need to deal with those moments effectively.

Roberto: Yeah, that's beautiful. And it comes again to the path we see. We are not talking about technology. We are talking about awareness of our emotion. We are talking about stopping and seeing, feeling our body, even if you're talking to video. one thing now that you said if you are feeling like this, and we notice the next time it's easier.

Because now you know the feeling you catch yourself and when you get the habit, maybe you can even say, okay, I will ask a question. And then when I feel that I'm feeling a little bit stress or up, I ask a question and I take the time to breathe while the person is answering Of course, I'm listening, but at the same time, I'm calming down.

Rachel: yeah, definitely. It's a muscle. And it has to be developed.

Roberto: Absolutely. this brings me, I'm super curious because you mentioned, a couple of times, the work they are doing at Virtual Sapiens so far, we've been talking about, what's in for the individual and why it's so important for a person, but there is also a connection with companies and, a broader picture and I would love to hear more about that. What's going on, what's the project you are looking into at this moment and for the future.

Rachel: Yes. Virtual Sapiens is an AI based company. We've been around for four years. before the huge chat GPT craze,

what we're excited about now is increasing the feeling of realistic conversations that you can practice with our AI. What sets us apart is that our AI, similar to what you said earlier, in terms of the role of a coach, our AI is basically like a supercharged mirror, and the AI will reflect your behaviors back at you.

We have a ton of metrics and development in terms of the nonverbal. So a lot of those blind spots people have, our AI can actually be like, Oh, Hey, did you know that during that call, you had your hands, constantly all over your face that's a nonverbal tell, like telling people that you're slightly unsettled and nervous and that you're not as calm composed and in control. What's really interesting about where we're going with our product is that you can now have customized conversations with our AI, the AI becomes a conversation partner as well as a coach. Users used to run through a presentation upload a video, or answer some simple questions and then get feedback.

Now you're interacting with the AI in the conversation. itself, the AI shows up as someone you're cold calling or, a direct report who you have to give critical feedback to. you get to practice these really tough conversations,

Some of them are virtual. And then you get to have pretty granular feedback from the AI the point, just to be clear is, we're not looking to replace every single coach. I think that there's to, to have this, this unique platform that provides such value and having the human element of coaching and insight and guidance.

Where our platform comes in is as a practice and reinforcement tool, and that's usually the part that can be tricky to ensure is happening.

Roberto: So what I hear it's like a way to scale, maybe with a coach, you can do it once with this amazing tool which I tried the preview and it was amazing with the pace that AI is progressing, I'm sure it will be more and more just a matter of time you can try even for a video, for a presentation of two minutes, maybe how many times you have to practice.

Of course, if it's an important pitch and you cannot have a coach listen to you every single time. This is an amazing way to scale that the coach may give you the, the fundamentals here. What's what you say, guide you, of course, we can, we can see what's important to you or the coaching process, but once you have your objective, go again and again

The more repetition you do, the more it works.

Rachel: Absolutely. a concrete example would be, you use our platform, go through a roleplay, and then the AI gives you feedback and says, you're using too many hand gestures. that's the AI reflecting the behavior back at you.

It's just saying, this is what you did. then you are either by yourself with a colleague or with a coach, if you're fortunate enough to have a real human coach to help you. That's where you work on like, okay, so how, like what is an appropriate level of hand gestures? How can I reduce my hand gestures so that it's not becoming a distraction or too much?

Similarly, if the AI is like, you're not using enough hand gestures, having both is obviously the ideal, but we have to realize that, not everyone is going to be able to afford a human coach. They're expensive, right? And of course, as they should be, they're very valuable, but the AI also opens up access.

Absolutely. And I'm curious what's the most unexpected feedback that people get. I will say the hand gestures, I think is a lot, is, is frequently a surprise. that's because people get, contradictory information a lot about hand gestures.

I've known people who have been told to never use hand gestures. And I'm like, well, from who? And they're like, a colleague or a boss. then they get feedback from the AI where the AI is like, you should be using hand gestures effectively, you're not using them at all. Right. And that's, so they're like, Oh, I was literally told not to. So that's something that, often surprises people is that, almost being given permission to. use hand gestures is a surprise for a lot of people, more people than I would have expected.

Roberto: And this connects me with what you said in the beginning, which is, giving, information and teaching people the basis of the hand gesture is actually based on how our brain works. If we don't see the hands and I see, hands down, what's that person doing? what's behind?

Are they typing a message? More and more with the virtual meetings, if I don't see the hands, and I see the eyes moving from one side to the other, I think, oh, okay, they're writing an email. even if we think we can get away with multitasking, people see that.

So as you mention in the beginning, you start making all these theories in your head and maybe they're just resting, but we don't see the hands who knows?

Rachel: Yes. exactly. I like to talk about this idea of your audience's mental energy. you don't want people to be spending their limited mental energy and focus on things that are not related to the message you're sharing.

Roberto: Yeah.

Rachel: Right. And so it's true. Like, if you can, and again, it's not like you have to be like, because there is such a thing as too many hand gestures, but having yourself properly framed so that it's relatively easy to have a hand show in a frame or two just helps, soothe your audience into knowing that like, Oh yeah, this is a conversation.

And it refocuses their mental energy on where you need it, which is on your message on the conversation you're having.

Roberto: Absolutely. this reminds me of one more thing to add which is the virtual background, No, always use a virtual background.

And then strongly suggest, if you can don't use a virtual background, because you know what's there, you are not imagining. Oh, what's what? And then, you know, sometimes things get blurred out and then something appears and they, oh, what's that? And I, when you said that mental energy, I recognize myself that I always go there and that my attention goes to the, the flash of whatever it comes into the background and I start wondering, what was that?

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. Our brains are triggered by new information. if you have a background that's constantly changing, because of the way you're moving or because there's stuff moving in the background itself, you're just, waving a red flag around for your audience you're doing yourself and your audience a disservice.

And so, you know, having a stable background. Sometimes that does call for a virtual background, if you, if you're in a busy place, but just being aware of the fact that that you're, you know, you're kind of like self sabotage a little bit.

Roberto: Yeah, absolutely. And of course, we cannot have always the perfect background.

it comes back to the team agreement. If we have an awful background or a crowded place, maybe it's better to have a background and not have the people go and come because it's much more distracting. But then you can say, I'm going to use this because I'm here.

So again, the intention, as you mentioned, and how do I want to come across? How do we want to communicate? Time flies. We're already half past an hour. I would suggest, what about if we check the chat, if we have some questions, if you have any questions, put it in the chat and now it's the moment,

Okay. Oh, hello, Said Great to see you made it. Hi, Annette. Hello, Michelle. Oh, thank you so much, Michelle for connecting. We are talking about coaching and Michelle is an amazing coach, was my trainer for one of the CTI training that I did. Amazing communicator also.

And this also again, reminds me of how important it is, the communication and especially in coaching. Now we are doing coaching virtually. imagine something that has so much to do with the presence of the person and, and the, and being the same place. And as we say in coaching, the geography is so important and nonetheless, we can do the same on video.

We can play with space again with intention if you have more questions, leave them. We can go back in the, in the end. Still, if we miss something, we will answer after the conversation,

Now I'm curious, Rachel, what you're more excited about for the coming year.

Rachel: Yeah, I'm, really excited about this level of interaction between our platform and other types of coaching. we've been very focused on partnering with other communication coaches and communication coaching firms in particular.

Now that we've introduced AI as that conversation partner, and have a much deeper ability in terms of being able to customize the feedback, we can actually partner with other coaches, career coaches, Executive coaches, leadership coaches, you know, sales coaches, certainly.

Right. And so I think that the expansion of our opportunity is really exciting to me. one, interesting pilot we're doing now is, with Mount Sinai on bedside manner. Mount Sinai is a major hospital in North America. we think of these challenging conversations we often have to have at the workplace.

And then when you think about the conversations, doctors, have, those are really hard conversations, right? The way they show up for that conversation is critical to that person's experience and the way they receive the information. So it's certainly an honor to work with them in that way.

Creating a program where we can support their physicians and training to communicate more effectively.

Roberto: Yeah. And again, it reminds me of how you can scale these things with partnering with an expert with this information, you can extrapolate. the best practice and try it again this is a conversation and maybe it's two minutes, you know, you give a critical information to a family to a patient The way you do it.

I can imagine maybe it can make the difference in the mind of the person and and even in how they can take this challenge huge empathy, and it's just one example. So I can imagine limitless situation.

Rachel: Right. And it actually takes us back to the topic of rapport and trust. If so much of the way we show up to a conversation is the foundation of building trust with someone.

Especially when that's the main moment or opportunity you have to connect with them. And if the individual feels. distracted or like they don't care or that their mind is somewhere else and they're just throwing general information at you versus something for you specific, then the patient is also less likely to heed the doctor's advice, right?

There will be a level of distrust that the patient has, and that just cancels out a lot of the value that, the physician is there to have.

Roberto: Yeah, absolutely. and Rachel what's the biggest challenge that you're facing?

Rachel: there are many challenges.

Roberto: Yeah. As a founder.

Rachel: Yeah. It's definitely not for the faint of heart. I think it's interesting because the excitement around AI is a blessing, but it's also a little bit of a curse, right?

We're at a stage now, in the adoption of AI where many companies are wondering, what can we do with AI ourselves now? Can we just create our own AI chatbot? Maybe we don't need to use so and so's chatbot if we can just create our own. What we've built at Virtual Sapiens is very unique specifically because of the nonverbal aspects of communication, the computer vision, metrics that we've developed.

Those are patented, They took years to develop and those are really hard to recreate. And so that's an advantage for us, a competitive advantage and a distinguishing factor. But we still are met sometimes with, Oh, well, you know, Microsoft speaker coach, like we have Microsoft speaker coach.

So isn't that the same thing? And it's like, No, because that's a very general tool that provides very general, nonspecific feedback. it's certainly not Microsoft's main product focus.

Roberto: Yeah. And that's a beautiful example. it reminds me of all the tools. Now we have Zoom and we have to pay for Zoom.

But then we have Microsoft Teams. with all the office, so maybe someone in the future, and of course, all the tools, I think they're going up and up and up. It's only getting better and better, I also bet that will be something very special. For example, the example that you did with the doctor.

I could not imagine using a generic tool for that. it's beautiful also that because it's being democratized. So maybe the basis will be available to everyone. But then if you want to do something very specific, you mentioned sales, you mentioned the doctor, maybe coaching, maybe whatever, very specific case, then you see the value and then you are willing to do more.

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, we'll see. so much is up in the air with it right now. the other challenge I'll say is, on the security. we're a privacy first company. The way we process information is very local, right? We don't send a lot to servers, which is a huge benefit for us, but a lot of companies are internally grappling with their own policies and they have to be so careful about how their data is processed by some of these open AI's.

Roberto: Yeah.

Rachel: Another LLMs course, and we do get caught up in that, frequently, just because it's such a wild west. There's so much uncertainty and serious consequences to doing it wrong. We were talking to a large client the other day, and it was interesting because they had done a company wide.

Survey of, their employees attitudes towards AI. And it came back with a really interesting general answer, which was that, you know, the employees felt the company was actually too timid. So it was impeding their ability to use the tools stay competitive and figure stuff out.

Cause they were like, there was a lockdown. They couldn't use anything. that's a really interesting topic in general how companies have to move forward and try things out but you have to be safe. Right. So how do you, that's really hard,

Roberto: Yeah. That's really hard.

Yeah. And I can feel the struggle and maybe the pain of doing all this because you have to demonstrate again and again that you're safe. it takes energy, but it's so important. And also when you said that the people.

I'm more eager to try the tools. It's very interesting because I think it's one of the first times that some tools are being adopted first by consumers and then by companies. the PC was first in companies, you didn't have a PC at home, but now it's the opposite. We had chat GPT first on our mobile, we were trying the voice mode, I'm using chat GPT for everything.

And now, of course, in the company is different because you have all this regulation and it's necessary because if it was our own company, if we change our hat we would also be conservative; I think it's a struggle and exciting at the same time because you can see what's coming out and you can see the future and then you say, not yet. It has to pass to three more layers of security. Wait, it's coming.

Rachel: Yeah, that's really hard. It's hard for the large organizations. It's really hard for the startups who are just trying to, You know, the responsible startups who have built their products in an intelligent and data secure way, still have to go through these same hoops.

Understandably, like it makes sense. I understand, but it's still really hard.

Roberto: Yeah. And there is one thing that you mentioned, Rachel, when you talk about the company that popped into my mind, about the change of the habits and I'm curious to hear your view, which is now we have tools that can record the meetings and they can do summaries for us.

They can extract the nose, all the kinds of things. And I'm curious to hear what's your experience on that, that you are also in contact with many companies, as these things being used widely, are there any, blocks.

Rachel: Yeah, I think I've been impressed with the number of companies that have adopted, call recording bots, recording conversations. It's interesting because I, understand the value. I get the appeal of having every meeting automatically recorded and getting insights from them and summary notes and next step actions and stuff. That's a huge time savings. But no one likes it.

When a bot shows up and is like, I'm going to record this whole conversation. And you're kind of like, I understand that a lot of our phone calls are recorded anyways, but something about the whole video being there and a lot of people feel like they can't say, Actually, I would prefer to not have this recorded.

Roberto: Yeah. And especially Rachel, if the bot is coming from somewhere else, if someone shows up to a meeting with another AI notetaker, and to your privacy point, if you don't know this AI notetaker, where is it going? Where is connected? Oof. And the trust, I think if you are really Transparent.

Okay. But then you have to have an agreement before. Are we going to record? Yes, no.

Rachel: Yeah. So I think that also probably increases the level of unease people have over video meetings, right? you start and you're like, ooh, I prefer to not have this bot in the call.

But it'll be interesting to see how it goes. Cause it seems like, at least from what I see, companies are increasingly using them.

Roberto: And again, I'm thinking about the potential opportunity. Imagine everything is recorded and you can analyze to all the people and deliver them how much value that we have.

And one thing that was very surprised, which was like, Whoa, I didn't imagine in a meeting, we do the recording and it shows the talking percentage of each person. it shows you talk, I'm inventing a number, 75 percent of the time.

if it was a collaborative session and one person is talking 70 percent of the time, maybe they're not aware.

Rachel: Yeah.

Roberto: When you see the start, they say, Oh, I wasn't aware because I start talking And if someone don't tell you, yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, Rachel, if you had to give a tip or something to try to the people who are connected and listening to this video, what would that be to invest 15 minutes in doing something to take out from today and do it from tomorrow?

Rachel: Yes, where to start? One tip. I still think

Roberto: Yeah,

Rachel: I would challenge people to try out some of these AI coaching tools.

Of course, everyone's welcome to try out Virtual Sapiens. We have a free trial, you don't know what you don't know. What I've found is that a lot of people are very quick to point out what other people are doing wrong and then are just not as aware of things that they can improve on.

Whether it's something as simple as you do record all of your calls. Great. go and watch yourself in one of those recordings what do you notice run that through an AI coach what kind of feedback are you getting? I'm not a perfect communicator.

There's always something I can learn. And I think there's something almost everyone can learn. To improve their ability to show up and connect and do so effectively.

Roberto: And that's beautiful because that's always the spirit. we are always getting better. We are always improving and the technology is changing.

So we have better technical setup, but then you have to learn that it's not all about the technical, it's also about you. it's endless, which is also exciting

Rachel: There are so many options out there for people now.

You really have a lot of choice in terms of how you show up and how you light yourself and how you set up your microphone your desk and your mouse. what are you doing to empower yourself to be comfortable as well? if you're sitting on a couch with your laptop on your lap, it's gonna be very hard to communicate and use hand gestures when you're holding your laptop.

Roberto: What I hear from you is also to be curious I'm curious about how I come across? I'm curious about all these things. I don't know. And as you said, you don't know what you don't know so how many things there can be so just be more curious and then of course there are so many things you can try you try one you like it then you try the other you can go to the full but at least to get the the idea to have This awareness that these things are important.

It's not just okay. Let's do another Yes. absolutely. May I add one thing, Rachel, which you showed me in this workshop I still remember the point. What I would say is to take off our self view . It's such a game changer. it's amazing.

for example, now I don't see myself, but I know. when we did the preparation, I know that I'm in the middle. My hands are visible and all this thing, you do the preparation, you see how you are, and then you focus on the person.

Because if you are focusing on yourself, it's addictive. I was looking all the time into my self view. I was speaking to myself.

Rachel: we're very fascinating to ourselves.

Roberto: Yeah. And we have this in real time. When we talk to someone, we don't have a mirror in front of us, so why should we have it on video?

Rachel: Exactly. Very well remembered.

Roberto: There is one curious thing, which is on the phone, I like to watch myself to see what's the face that I put? So, because one thing that I also, right, is that if you are smiling and you're talking, the person feels that you're smiling

Rachel: Yes.

Roberto: Doesn't mean that you have to smile all the time, right? Just to see which kind of face I'm putting when I talk to this person.

Rachel: Yeah. No, these things make a difference. You know, whether the tone of voice is influenced, it's a physical thing, right? So if you're breathing properly, your tone of voicing improves, you know, it's more robust and amplified. If you're not breathing, like everything's a little thinner and faster.

Roberto: Yeah.

And again, it's endless, we never stop learning.

Rachel: Yeah. That's what makes it all so exciting.

Roberto: Oh, Said is saying yes to watching your own recording. It's very cringeworthy the first time, but it gets easier and better over time. Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on this, Rachel?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, playback, video playback, game playback., this is a technique that performers and athletes have used since recordings have been available, right? As a dancer, we used to do it all the time because things often feel different from how they actually looked, right? And we'll often be surprised like, Oh, I thought I showed up and I thought I was like, super over the top with my expression. And then you watch it and you're like, Oh, it was actually like just the right amount.

Right. So like that feedback is what we need. you can do it yourself without the AI. If you have the recording and the time, go through it yourself. But if you want that objective third party review, have the AI review it

It's really surprising to see what comes up. We've heard from our users, some people prefer to use the AI because it feels more objective and less judgmental, It can be hard to send something to a colleague and have them comment on it. It feels very vulnerable, but if you use it, yeah, like the AI is just robot doesn't like, it's not, you know, it feels a little safer.

There's can certainly be lots of bias, but if it's been trained properly, do your due diligence always with these tools. Has it been trained properly? what are some of the thresholds that it's been, built around? you can try it over and over again and get consistently referenced feedback.

Roberto: Exactly. You can, it doesn't tire to watch over and over again. You can do it 20 times until you're satisfied. Exactly. And it's a muscle. You do it the first time, it feels so odd then you do it again. And one thing that I did, for example, this, Christmas, which is inspired by my friend, PJ Milani, who talks about things that don't scale.

One thing that doesn't scale is sending video messages. to the people you care about. I said, I'm doing something different. Instead of sending a message, I will send a video message to people who I care about. And, I saw the message and a few of them, I said, no, I don't want to come across like this.

And I did it again.

Rachel: Yes,

Roberto: Absolutely. and time flies, Rachel. this is a very exciting conversation. We could go on for hours.

Yeah.

Roberto: I would like to, first ask if people want to reach out to you or know more about this amazing project, what's the best way?

to get contact with you.

Rachel: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the easiest. So, follow me, reach out, DM, whatever, connect, on LinkedIn. And then, our website is virtualsapiens.co, C O, not dot com. And, like I said, we do have a free trial there. I'll also share, a special link, in the chat as well that people can use, for this episode.

Roberto: Thank you. I hope people will take advantage of it and experiment, as you said.

Rachel: This has been so fun. I think, there's so much in this conversation that, you know, hopefully many takeaways for the audience.

Roberto: And I have one final question, which is, what would you like to see more and less in the world?

Rachel: Just in general? Yes. In general.

I think this idea of curiosity that you keep going back to really resonates. I tend to think that the skill of critical thinking is so important, especially as we have so much information fed to us from the media, from AI. we have to have the muscle to pause Double check, reflect, do some research, get curious about the information that we're being fed.

We can't just be taking things at face value. I would like to see more of the development of that skill.

Roberto: Absolutely. Which reminds me that we all have this and our children, and which by the way, congratulations, because now you're almost one year old. And you have the startup, you're, CEO, co founder, plus mother with this amazing journey.

they are curious by nature. So we can learn from them so much.

And with this, we can maybe wrap up the conversation. I'm so glad we found the time. Thank you so much, Rachel. It was super exciting and I hope that the people who connected also get some value. This was all absolutely for me. Thank you to all the people who, who send comments and who participate in the chat.

Thank you so much for being there and we'll be in touch.

Rachel: All right. That's for 2025.

Roberto: Great way to start the year. Bye everyone.

Rachel: Bye.

Where to find Rachel, and her company, Virtual Sapiens

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