Key insights from the conversation

Personal backgrounds and stories

• Peter’s journey from founding seven companies to becoming a coach for founders and CEOs

• The importance of creativity, energy, and the desire to bring out the best in others

The essence of coaching and impact

• The rewarding aspect of coaching, understanding people and contributing to their growth

• The coach-coachee relationship's depth and the mutual selection process involved

Personal development

• The concept of work-life integration instead of balance, emphasizing the importance of being present and aligned

• Learning from mistakes, including the lack of community building and over-reliance on self-direction in earlier career

• The importance of self-awareness, and the alignment of one's actions with personal values and aspirations

Hiring practices and creating a supportive environment

• Creating a space where employees can succeed, feel ownership, and contribute meaningfully to the company

• The importance of transparency and ensuring a good fit for both the company and the candidate

• The need for companies to create compelling reasons for talented individuals to join and stay

• The importance of choosing projects and engagements that are a "hell yes"

Full transcript

Here is the entire conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here's also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn Live.

Roberto

Peter. Great to see you today.

Peter

Likewise.

Roberto

Finally, we have been planning this live for a few weeks, and I'm super excited. By the way, we already have almost 40 people connected. So, hi, everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much for connecting here today. Also, thank you for your time for investing one hour of your time in listening to our conversation; it's also a big responsibility, at least for us, to be worth this investment. This is also what excites me, seeing that people are interested in what we are going to talk about, and at least for me, it will be a pleasure to speak with you today, Peter.

First of all, before we jump in, I would like you to introduce yourself in one minute, and then, of course, I'll let you introduce yourself.

We met for the first time in a community of creators, and then we connected one-on-one. We had the first conversation, and I was super intrigued by your creativity and, at the same time, how you were very eager to suggest and share ideas. I saw from the first moment your energy and desire to help people and to bring the best out of everyone. And this is also perhaps why you are a coach. So now, before I explain too much, I would prefer you to introduce yourself to the people.

Peter

My name is Peter Sorgenfrei. I'm Danish. I reside in Copenhagen, Denmark, but I've spent most of my career in the United States, the UK, France, and Austria. I've built seven companies. Some of them were successful, and some were not so successful.

I now spend my time coaching founders and CEOs through both the ups and downs of the personal and professional challenges that they may face.

Roberto

I'm sure that in these seven companies, you had a lot of experience, many roller coasters, and many learnings. You also shared a lot of what you learned, and I'm curious about how you decided to be a coach.

Peter

Well, it's a sad and positive story because, essentially, I was running my last company; I was the CEO of a startup with autonomous or self-driving vehicles. And I had 70 employees in five countries. Then I got sick and couldn't work for a while. I eventually got fired by my board because a buyer was no longer going to buy the company.

Then, I had to figure out what to do next. And I'm not good at being an employee, so I thought maybe I'd start another company because I know how to do that.

And then I realized I'd missed having somebody like what I do today as I was building all these companies. I had missed having somebody utterly independent of a board, investor, partner at home, friend, or co-founder, but at the same time, somebody who had gone through similar experiences. So it was more than a regular coach who hadn't necessarily built companies, a psychologist, or somebody else you might talk to. So, I was trying to merge those things. I then wrote to 40 founders and CEOs worldwide who did not know me and described this idea. I wasn't pitching them. And an exciting thing happened, because we all know when you write somebody cold, most of the time it's crickets.

But many of them got back to me and said, that sounds amazing. When do we get started? How much is it? How does it work? And I wasn't selling anything. A few months later, I got a note from somebody in the United States who is a reasonably famous founder. And he said I've heard you're doing something. I'd like you to come over and spend some time with me. I'm going through some stuff. And so I went over there, and he became my first client.

And now, thankfully, I have clients in seven different countries and work with amazing people every day.

Roberto

Yeah, and I hear from you that you enjoy what you do. And you say, "I work with amazing people". And this is also one of the beauties of coaching, which is that you get to know people and you see all the brilliance, all the things that people can do. You are also part of this, and you have an impact.

This is something beautiful because, at the same time, you are entirely autonomous, and I believe you also choose your customers and vice versa. You have to select your coach, but the coach has also to choose the coachee. It's a deeper relationship.

Peter

It is, indeed. And like I met you, I get to meet fascinating people who contribute tremendous insight and value to my life as well. Right. I just had a session earlier today with a client in a pretty difficult position. But even so, out of that came an energy or some ideas that then got me to think differently about how I apply myself in my work life.

So it's the most rewarding job I've ever had, and it doesn't feel like a job. I'm very thankful that I get to do this every day.

Roberto

And this reminds me of something that you discussed earlier in the past weeks: the idea of the alignment. Can you talk a bit more about this? What's for you?

Peter

Well, I think a lot of people talk about work-life balance. And to me, it's more like work-life integration. We live in a world where we might go to an office, but we deal with some personal stuff on that day. I know, unfortunately, that your little ones have been sick. So there are all these things coming at us while we, at the same time, have to take care of our professional and personal duties. So the thing I work with clients on is to accept that as fact instead of having it be a struggle between the two things, the personal and the professional life, and then start seeing how we can be aligned with the things that we want to do. So when we're at home or in our personal space, even though we're at the office, we're doing our thing. Calling home, checking on the kids if that's the thing, or arranging a summer vacation for a few minutes while we're still in the middle of something else. And then when we're in our professional sphere, we're professionals.

So, we try to be present with where we are and be true to who we are in that moment. And that's something many people want to do but have difficulty figuring out how to do. And so that's what I work with my clients to get there.

Roberto

I could not have said it better. This is something that I also believe in.

For example, now, what we're doing, does it work, or is it personal? The boundaries are not 100% clear. Of course, for example, in my case, I have my job, and I do it, but at the same time, when I'm out, I keep thinking of things. And what we do outside our job sometimes is connected inside and vice versa. I once thought that we had to have a straight line and that we didn't have to move here and there. And at the same time, when you accept that it's perfectly fine, for example, to work on a weekend if you have to. Of course, if it's every single weekend and you don't spend time with your family, maybe that's a problem, and perhaps you are trying to do too much, or maybe you are controlling too much, and you don't let other people do their work.

But at the same time, it's perfectly fine if sometimes you have to do it, because then you know that when is the moment, as you said, you are doing the work and if something happens, you can take this time because you are responsible. And what you talk about also speaks about autonomy, accountability for our work, and knowing what we must do and the job and the work still will be there.

Peter

And I think that's what many people tend to forget, whether they're in a traditional employment job situation or whether they're in a startup or the founder or the CEO, the folks that I work primarily with. The things we must do professionally will always be there to your point. It can always grow. We can always do more. So it's about being conscious. I'm not saying do less necessarily. It's about being mindful of saying, I make a choice here: am I working, or am I not working?

And if I'm working, I'm working and then try to be focused on that. But if I'm not working, be present with your family. And I think for many in the startup community; we're constantly thinking about things and also, you know, when we come out of work and what was the problem for me, honestly, when I was doing my thing was my hobby was my work. I wasn't necessarily working a lot of hours. I rarely worked on the weekends and never worked late at night.

But I was always thinking about work. I was always thinking about the new idea or the next thing, or did I remember to do this? So even though I was with my friends or family, I wasn't there. And I think many people are struggling with that one and how to get out of that because, well, I get this on my phone. Technically speaking, we can eliminate distractions with our phones. But the biggest issue is to get control of this one. How do I manage my mind to be more present with the people I am with now?

Roberto

Absolutely. Also, I guess you must be present with the other person in coaching. My training is from the co-active coaching, and we have a say that we have levels one, two, and three. Level one is our mind. You're thinking about your stuff and what you want to do. Level two is the other person, and you only focus on the person you hear. Level three is the person, the environment, your intuition, etc.

This also requires a lot of self-management because you have to be present. I think it applies to other things in a meeting or conversation. If you are not present with the person we are discussing, if we were not present with each other, there would be no connection. So that's it.

Peter

There wouldn't be, and most people sense it, right? So if I wasn't present with you, maybe not right now because we're doing LinkedIn live, but if you and I were having a conversation, you would get the feeling that I wasn't quite there because I was thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner or something else, right? But that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the feeling you have with yourself. Do I want to go through life being someone who cannot give my attention to somebody else?

Whether or not we have spaghetti bolognese or lasagna tonight, I have a 12-year-old, right? So that's the menu here. You know, so do I want to be that person, or do I want to be the person that when Roberto is in front of me or on the phone, as would be the case mostly with you and me, I'm there? I'm into what he wants to discuss because that makes me feel good. That makes me feel like this is the guy I will be in the world.

When we reframe it that way, when we think about what kind of person we want to be, not for your sake, not for Roberto's sake, but for my sake, it becomes much easier to be present with the people that you care and love about, even though that sounds funny when you say it out loud.

Roberto

Yeah, it's like what kind of person I want to be and what I want to express.

Peter

Exactly. It's not about what you think, actually, right? Because we're so worried about it, what will Roberto think? Or what will these guys think? We worry about a lot of other people all the time. Nobody's immune to that. That's also important because, of course, we need to be respectful and treat others kindly. But at the end of the day, it's more about who I am. What am I? And then getting a handle on that. And I think for a lot of folks that you meet in your coaching practice, and that I meet, they've gotten away from that, right?

They may have started being calm, collective, kind leaders of businesses, but because of the stresses of the job or the stresses of the startup, over time, they become something else and get lost. And what people like you and me try to help them with is to get back to who they actually are and then go out into the world as that person.

Roberto

Now that you said getting lost, I'm curious. You talk a lot about having made all the mistakes, and from this perspective, yeah. I have mine also; I will share mine, of course. And I'm super curious: what's the mistake or the learning that left a mark on you and changed something?

Peter

Are we going to talk about all my mistakes now?

Well, there are many. I think you can divide them into sort of tactical mistakes, like things you can do on a day-to-day basis that I didn't do. And then there are some more strategic or mental mistakes. And if we start with that, the more esoteric ones, I think I initially thought, had the feeling that it was me against the world. I did not have a community.

I wrote recently about Elon Musk, right? And not, there's no comparison, I know that. But certain people are so focused on one thing and driven that they may believe they have all the answers. And so they do it kind of their way or the highway. And I was like that for an extended period of my career.

I felt like I had the answers. I felt like I could do it. I didn't build a community. I didn't, you know, I had great employees and colleagues, and everybody was delighted working with me. We can discuss that separately, but I took the burden and the weight on my shoulders. In the last four years, I've done a lot on LinkedIn to build a community where I can connect with people like yourself and others. At the ripe old age of 45 (I'm turning 50 this year), I needed more people in my life to be richer. And that was one of the mistakes I made earlier.

Roberto

And how funny, of course, in a metaphorical sense, it is also the same thing I did to not focus on relationships or people as much as I should have.

And in my case, when you talk about this community, I love what you said about community. In a community, I hear that you learn from each other. And so it's not like a transaction; it is something more. My mistake in my case was that it was early on; the one I remember more vividly is precisely having too much, let's say, goal orientation. You focus too much on the task and on doing it perfectly. And then you think that everything is doing the thing perfectly. But at the same time, if you don't invest time in relationships if you don't get buy-in from the people, if you don't create a good environment in your team, results don't matter. And it's much better to have 80% perfect and care for the people, have done it well, have shared, have asked opinion, and all these things than to do it perfectly your way, which is not necessarily the only way.

You think you have the truth, but maybe it's only your version. And instead, focus more on the people.

And, of course, I learned it the hard way, but now it's something I'm very mindful of. And what you also said about reaching out, when you said in the beginning, you reached out to these 40 CEOs, and you're surprised at what happens because you reach out with something that you care about and from a place that is authentic to you and it's what you care. People respond, and this is amazing.

Peter

And I think that's a critical point. So when I meet a young founder, which I also do, a young founder is somebody in their early mid-twenties building a company, and it's their first company. Very often, we work on not having all the answers and being okay with that. So they portray outward. They think that the startup environment is one where they have to be, you know, show strength and see what I'm doing.

They don't show vulnerability, they don't show insecurity, because that's what our investors want, that's what my team wants. And now, because I have the experience, I can tell them, well actually, no, if you show insecurity and vulnerability, people will rally around you and help you build something better than it otherwise would be. As a 20-something-year-old, hopefully, people on this stream know, but a lot don't, or at least they don't know how to show it.

And so I wish I had learned that in my 20s, not my 40s.

Roberto

And I guess this is something that we have to learn from ourselves. Someone can tell us, you know, it's better to show you're not sure. And then, until you don't do it yourself and you don't bang your head on the wall, you will not. It's something that, yeah. And it looks counterintuitive.

When you show that you don't know, they will doubt my skill and think I'm not competent. I also saw myself in this in my early days. And at the same time, it's the opposite. Because when you say, I'm not sure how to do this, people know. You mentioned in the beginning that people notice if you're thinking about something else when you are not in the conversation.

Of course, people notice when you're faking; you can never be sure of everything. If I meet someone who's always sure of himself and always has 100% certainty, I don't believe them. And on the other side, what would you do if they said, I'm not sure about this? I believe more in that person because then when they say, I'm sure, I will think it's true because it's honest.

What you said also connected to what you discussed: making people care. What is the secret to making people care?

Peter

I practice this human approach, which means that, back to our alignment, you essentially show people who you are, which will get them closer to you. Right? You can't do it inauthentically. Is that even a word? You can't do it. You know, you can't fake it. If I meet Roberto and can feel him and see what he's about, he shows me vulnerability. I care about how we will do something together more than if I see somebody where I can't see the cracks in the armor, where I can't see a little bit about his personal life, or where I can't see these other things. Now, we're talking in a professional context, right? So that's one aspect. It sounds straightforward. You have to be you. But we all, regardless of age, wear a suit, armor, or coat when we go out in the world. But the more we can be ourselves, the more people will care.

That's number one.

Number two is around a sense of ownership. We might talk about hiring in a minute.

One of the things that I like to preach is to make sure that the people you work with understand that they have a vital role to play and that you give them responsibility. You give them the things, or you together figure out what the things are that they need to work on and you then let them fail or succeed alongside you in a safe environment, in an environment where they're psychologically safe and where they can feel that it's okay to fail.

Many leaders say this, but they're terrible at doing it. They're like, yeah, I want to provide this safe space. We can fail; it's okay. And the first time somebody fails, they get berated in a meeting or worse.

But if you can honestly say, you know what, Susan, it's okay; we're going to figure it out together. And if you can do that a couple of times, and if you can't coach Susan to figure it out on her own over time, then you have a different issue. But if you create that environment, people will care about your actions and stick with you for a long time.

So I've hired 300 people, maybe even at this point, over the years. And it's clear when I failed, it's because I did not show my side or my personality, number one. Number two, I jumped too fast and, of course, corrected something they were doing. I didn't give it enough time to get underway. And so people started not trusting what I was saying. So, there was a disjoint between what I was saying and what I was doing. Eventually, they either left or were poor performers, and I got rid of them because I didn't create the environment in which they could succeed.

Roberto

It reminds me of an idea from a fantastic book called "Care to Dare" by George Kohlrieser.

First, you must care for the people and show that you care, and then you can dare them. And what you said is the perfect example of you being the secure base for these people. You give them a challenge, and then you are there to hold them if they fail. You don't just punish them.

You mentioned hiring. And where does this caring and daring fit into your hiring process?

Peter

I'm known for spending an inordinate amount of time on hiring. There is no more important thing in a company. So, I would have four or five interviews with people I would hire in different circumstances. I spent much time on it, even when we grew the company to several hundred employees. And now people will say, oh, that doesn't scale. No, that's true. It doesn't scale. But there's nothing more important. So that's how I chose to do it.

People can do it whichever way they want to. So the thing I did once we'd figured out that we were going to be working together and people came into the business, I typically gave them three tasks. The first task would be something that they could do in their sleep that they'd done in their previous role, something that was super easy for them to do, right? So get started. The second task would be somewhat more challenging than they hadn't done before in their role.

I knew that they would be able to stretch and get it done. And the last one, which is the kicker, was incredibly difficult but super important for our business that nobody knew how to do.

I've started many companies in spaces that were new technology and things. So it was greenfield, and we've done many things there. And so I would give them something instrumental to our taking the next step that they had never done before.

I'd say you're here for a reason, Roberto. I hired you because you are who you are and are super good at your work. Somebody in this business needs to solve this task and figure it out. I think it should be you. Please do that. And in the beginning, most people freaked out and were like, whoa, what is this? Is the company resting on my shoulders? And, it didn't, and we would show them that.

But then, little by little, they would work their way through and figure out how to do it. And as they presented it back to me or whomever else they were working with, people were like, yeah, that's a good idea, but did you think about this? Or could we do it this way? Again, they got a real sense of ownership, contribution, and purpose. And so within the first couple of months of being in any of the companies that I had, people would be totally in there and feel like it had been, you know, a more extended time.

So that's how I did it. A lot of folks said the first three months were challenging. I mean, I would go home and not know, and boom, this guy Peter, and how could I live up to his expectations and all that? But then, after that, it was the best work environment I've ever had. You've been the best boss I've ever had because you created this space.

Roberto

Three hundred people, interviews, hires. I also hear that you invest a lot in the beginning of the relationship, ensuring that the person feels you care. It's not the same. You enter a company, and the CEO interviews you personally. You already see that you care.

Peter

Well, my businesses weren't, you know, Walmart. We didn't have tens of thousands of employees. But it's not that they should feel that I care. It's that they should see and know that I care. Another thing I did was I never had salary ranges, for example.

I told people, you tell me what you want to get paid. But before you do, there are four things you need to know. Number one, if you come back with a number that's much higher than what I think we should pay for this role with your experience in this context, I will say thank you very much; I will not negotiate; it was nice meeting you.

Because if I start negotiating, I can say, Roberto, that's 10% more than I thought. That 10%, you know, when it's cold in winter, and I'm asking you to install something in some faraway city, you're going to be like, ah, maybe I shouldn't have taken this job. I don't want to get there, so I don't negotiate.

When you come back with your number, you need to consider what you are worth to a company of your size in this job. So we're not McKinsey or Sony. We're a startup. So what do you think it should be worth? Then, the last, second, third, and fourth would be considered in the context of your home life. It would help if you came to work with me and had to explain at home that you've taken a massive pay cut for these reasons. It has to work on your home life. So it has to be able to pay your bills, that kind of thing. And so when people did that and came back to you with a number, 80% of the cases were within a couple of percent of what I had thought they should be paid.

And in the cases where they weren't, we would talk about it, even when I had to reject them outright. I'd say, I'm sorry, that's too high, and here's why. Good luck in your endeavors because you will be happier somewhere else where they can make that compensation happen for you.

And in the cases where they were way too low, I would say, Roberto, you probably didn't think this through. Here are the reasons why it should be higher. So let us start you higher. But if they were way too low, say 30 or 40%, I would also say thank you very much because they hadn't done the homework and the exercise.

This means I've spoken to many people over the last 20 years because to get to 300 hires, I've probably interviewed more than 5,000 people, right?

Roberto

Wow, and it also speaks again of responsibility and ownership. You have to do this homework when you are set in your own salary. It's not like, oh yeah, they give me this, I accept, and then where hard times come, oh, I accepted this, they forced my hand. No, no, you chose. So, this is a much different perspective.

Peter

My last company was in Denmark; a big industrial family funded it. They had an HR department, and I told them two things. I told them I was going to do video interviews. They're like, we don't do video interviews. I'm like, I don't give a sh**, right? I'm going to do video interviews, and I'm going to ask people to answer questions on video. Well, I want to get a feel of who they are. I want to see that they're comfortable doing that.

The second thing I said is I won't have salary bands. I will have an idea of what the role is worth, and when they come through the door, this is how I will do it. They almost lost their morals. They're like, that can't be done. I'm like, is it illegal? No, it's not unlawful. Okay, that's how I'm going to do it. And the candidates in Denmark were also quite surprised because they'd never experienced something like this.

Roberto

Now that you mention this, it looks like a different way to manage people. I'm curious because you have a very privileged perspective when talking to many CEOs of very different companies. What are the most significant shifts or times that you see today in the world of work, what you see?

Peter

That's a very broad question. I think the mentality is different. CEOs and founders know that to attract the best talent, they need to create different environments that, even ten years ago, they thought they could make. Ten years ago, it was enough to work on AI, let's say, which is the cool technology today. So if you did that, you could attract the engineers and all this other stuff.

But today, to attract the best-performing people, you first have to convince them not to start their own thing. Because everybody wants to start their own business, right? So, at first, you have to say, Roberto, I know you're a brilliant engineer and could build all sorts of stuff, but why don't you come and do it here with me? Right? Number two is that I must create an environment with you with that sense of ownership, purpose, and contribution, and I need to keep nurturing that.

Once you're here, I think CEOs and the founders that I speak to today spend a lot of time with their people on a day-to-day basis, not patting them on the back but making sure that they create that environment so that they will do their best work and then accept that in two or three years, Roberto here will do something else because that's a more natural cycle than the cycle I think 10, 15 years ago, even in startup land, you stayed with a startup for a more extended time than you do today.

Roberto

Putting what you talk about at the beginning of the community into the relationships, colleagues, and the community is essential. For example, I've been here for three years. I think that I have to make the best of this time. I have to have a purpose for me. I must learn, have a good relationship with everyone, and see my contribution.

After these three or four years, I will go to another place. So, it has to be a worthwhile investment. And what you said in the beginning, you have to convince yourself not to do your own thing. And this is an investment. I will invest X years of my professional life here. So this is also a big responsibility for me.

Peter

There's much more of a give and take. And it also comes down to the fact that we just spoke about interviewing, right? So if somebody listening to this thinks about doing something else, going to a company, the balance has changed slightly. It used to be that the company was kind of up here, and you're like, please, can I work for you and with you? But today, it's much more level where the companies have to do a job and convince the person applying.

As the applicant has to ensure, is this the environment I want to be in? Another trick for founder-CEOs on the call is to do everything possible to encourage people not to take the job. Make sure that they fully understand what they're getting themselves into because then you avoid them waking up six months later and being like, wait a minute; this is not what I signed up for. So, the companies have to do two things in the interview process.

Give an honest, authentic, transparent picture of everything that's the company. Make sure that the candidate fully understands and experiences what's being communicated. Because we hear one thing, right? You know, we say, oh yeah, we're challenged a little bit here. What the candidate says: oh, that sounds fun, right? It's not fun. It's a pain in the bum. And on the candidate side, it would be around saying, okay.

Do I honestly see myself here? Is this the environment I can grow in, or do I need a job? And if you're in the, do I need a job camp, I understand that from a financial perspective, we all need to make a living, but I'd encourage you to think twice about joining a business.

If you have any questions about joining a business, don't hesitate to ask. Try to find a way to find a better place because, to your point, we spend six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours on this thing called work. Yeah, so I'd better be right.

Roberto

I also hear transparency. Transparency from the person being hired. So they say, I'm here, I'm committed, I'm not, and if I'm looking for a job, it can also be acceptable; if it's not the case, it's better. At the same time, the responsibility for the company to be honest and transparent from the beginning reminded me of an article I read from Corporate Rebels called "Scare Them Away Letter."

So you spill all this bad stuff or the not-so-glamorous stuff on the table on day one and they say, okay, this is everything you had to know. This will not be a walk in the park with flowers. We have some good things, and this is also this and this and this.

And especially in companies, for example, where you mentioned not having a range of salaries, this is something unexpected.

Peter

Think about the salary range for a second, right Roberto? I understand why companies need to do that for many organizational reasons. But at the end of the day, when Peter goes to work, Peter is worth something. Let's call it X. And it is for people's life at home and work. You know, I live in a house, could I live in a smaller place? Yes. Could I not have a car? Yes. All these other things. But my life is what my life is. So if the number doesn't allow me to continue with that life, or a little bit better, it will seep into me; it will not be the right environment for you.

And you can do plenty of things, especially today; you can work in all sorts of ways, in all kinds of parts of the world. It's about finding the human fit and the financial fit. And I think people sell themselves shorts on both whenever they're in this situation.

We're talking a lot about hiring; I don't know if this is where you want it to go today, but it's one of my favorite topics. I think it can be done so much better than it's being done today.

Roberto

I love that.

And it's super interesting because you said that humans and finances are essential. Both are important.

Peter

It's kind of like finding your spouse, right? You're happily married, and that's because you made wise choices, and you interviewed your spouse, and you guys figured out we have the same values and setup, both on the human side and the financial side. That's why you guys are so great together.

Roberto

Why don't we check the chat if you have questions?

We can talk about this for an hour, which is super interesting.

Peter

I saw one from Russell discussing whether an early founder is age-based. Some indeed come to founder status late in life. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that. Many people become founders late in life. I just saw a stat the other day that founders in their 40s and 50s are likelier to IPO than founders in their 20s and 30s. I'm not sure, but we can look into the details. You're absolutely right.

Let me reframe it or rephrase it. An early founder is somebody who's never been a founder. So maybe it's more about the first time you're building a company, regardless of age. I do believe that a certain cockiness comes with youth. I had it. Many of us can relate to doing things in our teens and twenties that we probably wouldn't consider doing later in life. And I also believe that as we get more life experience and age, we see the world differently. But thanks for that question. Maybe this clarifies it.

Roberto

Here's another question. Can you explain how you can accomplish work 100% between exactly nine and five? I've seen so many of our workers up there, computers exactly nine and closing them down at 4.59.

Okay, so I will try to answer it, but at the same time, I think we don't have a single answer.

There is an excellent law called the Parkinson Law: work expands to fill the time allocated to it. So if we had 12 hours, we would probably work 12 hours. If we had four hours, we would focus on the most crucial thing and finish it.

And it's also connected with what you initially said about being present. If I know that I have to be at 4 p.m. or 5 p.m., whatever to my daughter's dance show, I will do everything to be super-efficient. I will not waste one minute. This drive will make me super efficient.

It's one side being focused, and at the same time, to me, it's like choosing what to do and what not to do, what to delegate, or what to leave. So this can work for most things, and then, of course, you can have something unexpected, but most of the time, you should be able to control, which is also related to autonomy, responsibility, and ownership. If you feel the ownership and you are the master, let's say, of your time, you will be much, much better prepared to deal with this and to work.

Peter

A couple more questions come in, so maybe we should make sure we cover everything else.

Timothy asks, do you have any go-to interview questions that you ask?

Beyonce already mentioned. What are you looking for when you hear the answer from the candidate? Do you want to take a stab at that one, Roberto, or should I?

Roberto

I usually ask what excites the person the most. What was telling about something that you enjoyed? This is also funny because it's also a question for what we call a coaching discovery session: to see the person's values.

I also ask this in my one-on-one and exit interviews and the interview: what gets you nuts and you can't stand on one side, and what excites you the most? And from these extremes, you have a lot of information. And also, I think you cannot, as you said, fake this. When you talk about something that excites you, you can see that, and you cannot prepare because you don't need preparation. It's just who you are. So, a very personal and work-related question for me will be there.

Peter

I typically would spend time with people in environments where they didn't think we would be interviewing. So, rather than having them come to the office, I would ask them to meet me at a local park for a walk. I would talk about things we would observe, like a tree, somebody sitting on a bench, whatever it would be. But I did that to sort of tease out their imagination. What kind of things could they imagine if I said, for example, some lady was sitting on a bench?

What do you think her story is? Then, you start seeing how people feel about it. They tell you something. So that's one thing I did. The other thing I did was ask questions I thought would never have been asked elsewhere. One of my favorites is telling me something few people know about you.

And because that question allows you to see, okay, is Roberto going to tell me that, you know, he eats peanut butter with his fingers out of the jar when nobody's looking? I don't know if you do that, but that's a stupid example. Or will he tell me that he won the medal in the third grade because he built a rocket in some physics class? So, what kind of story, vulnerability, and intimacy is he willing to give me this early in our relationship?

Mind you, I didn't set it up. I just asked the question. I didn't preface it by saying, I want something juicy about you, how you eat your peanut butter. No, it gives you a sense of how comfortable somebody is with me telling me that. And I would typically do it, you know, in the later stage of the interview process.

And then to your point, that's a good one, Roberto. Like, what pisses you off? What will I do as your boss potentially that will make you so enraged and frustrated? The standard answer is to disrespect my time or something like that. That's fair, but you can get to more interesting questions because people could say, if you're late to meetings with me, I find that disrespectful. And they'll say, well, why is that? Where does that come from? Well, because I had.. and then they tell me some personal story about something happening in their life.

So you can gauge many things by asking them those kinds of questions.

Should we jump to another one?

Roberto

How do we stop the blame game and work together to win?

Peter

So, again, I think it starts with honesty and transparency, right?

If you have a sense that a company you're interviewing with is not telling you what's going on, if it's a little too rosy or easy, then I would start challenging that as a candidate. But having the confidence to do that when you're in that situation can be difficult, right? But I would say something along the lines of saying, okay, you've told me all this stuff, but it can't be that good.

Or there has to be, you know, where does the company fail? Or where does this department not work out? Or, you know, interrogate them a little bit back because you show them by doing that that A, you're interested in getting to the heart of what it means to be a colleague with the team or the company. But the other thing is, you're showing them that you care. If they cannot answer those questions, they give you superficial answers; they will do that continuously; over time, you will not have trust and transparency; therefore, you should not work there.

Roberto

When you talk about this vulnerability, it's something similar to what we discussed initially about people not having all the answers. No company has all the answers, and no company is perfect. And this is something that also when you work in some place, you always think that the grass is greener everywhere else. But then, because you only see the outside, and we compare in companies, in life, everything.

We compare our inside and ourselves with other people and companies outside. But then when you are in, you say, oh, okay, this is the same. We have also struggled and faced challenges. And when you see someone who shares this, you see they are different. And then you care more.

Peter

You want to be with people who get you. So again, we can't all walk around and think that everything the company cares about is us. And that's not what I'm advocating, but we should still be in environments where they understand. So I think it was Kate or somebody on the chat who brought this up, right?

They have to get you and see how I can get the best out of Roberto while giving him the best experience. It's a two-edged thing. And if they don't understand who Roberto is, how can they provide an environment where you can succeed? The companies we're talking about are not necessarily manufacturing on a factory line.

We're talking about knowledge workers and those kinds of things primarily. But if I know what I need to do to get the most value from my money essentially out of Roberto, that's a win-win because he's going to enjoy working there, he's going to do his best work, that's good for him, and the company is going to benefit. So, if the company doesn't get you and doesn't want to understand you, why should you not take your talent elsewhere? As LeBron James said when he went to Miami from Cleveland.

Roberto

And when they get you, you are also responsible for giving back and doing your best so you cannot hide and say, oh no, they don't get me. No, no, no. It's like I cannot blame them. It's on me now to do my best, give my 100%, and choose how to do this. So there are no excuses. When you see this transparency, you must also be in accordance with that.

I have one more question for you, Peter before we wrap up, and I'm also curious. What's the project now, or what's the thing that excites you the most?

Peter

And now you're giving me the interview question, aren't you? So I'd be happy to work for you any day. If this is an interview, you've shown me who you are, and I'd love to work on the Roberto Ferraro enterprises.

So what excites me? I'm in the enviable position to have found my true calling, working as a coach with founders and CEOs. It's exciting to do more of that. So I'm doing a couple of things now that will be new. I'm doing a CEO circle, which is like a group coaching program for founders and CEOs over an eight-week period, where we get together and do it in a group rather than in my one-on-one sessions. So I'm pretty excited about that.

And then again, a community. I do these lunches and dinners sometimes, and I do these virtual lunches, too. Whenever I bring together a group of minds similar to this chat, hopefully, a lot of people walk away with something that they can use from one of the participants or sometimes from me or whatever it is, so I want to do more of that, so I'm doing the CEO circle.

Then, I'm launching a podcast with founders similar to this, where we talk about all the nitty gritty stuff and all the failings we go through. And I'm trying to give an audience to people who don't necessarily have an audience. So, it is not the most popular founders and CEOs you can find, but people who are doing tremendous work from whom I think the world could learn.

So those are two things that excite me. What about you?

Roberto

Again, as you said, many, many things. At this moment, what I would say excites me the most, and I also want to be very focused, is coaching. This is not only because it helps me to be a better person but also because, first of all, we always say that to be a coach and take the coachee to a place, we have to be there first.

So, it requires a lot of self-management, knowing ourselves, and accepting many things.

And so the work that you have to do on yourself to be a coach is fantastic. At the same time, it's wonderful also, as you said, to see amazing people and to see how, with your presence, with your questions, and with being there for them, they can transform.

They can show and be sure also of who they want to be. And again, it connects with something we said in the beginning: who I want to be and what I want to express. We don't ask this question often. And it's a pity because we should; I'm convinced we should always have a coach throughout our lives. And sometimes, it was seen as, oh, you need a coach because you have something to fix.

Peter

Yeah, it's not about fixing, honestly. In some cases, it's about fixing if they've gotten to a point where something is broken. But in most cases, it's about allowing them to trust the answers that they have within, right? It's about reaching a point where you can honestly be yourself and be the best. I ask this question, you know, sometimes, when you go to a cocktail party or dinner or somebody, and somebody says, so what do you do?

And everybody goes, well, I do this, and they talk about work. So what I do is I say, well, I am writing a novel, or I paint, or I do these other things, and people are like, well, wait a minute, I thought you were going to tell me you're an accountant.

But then I asked them back, I was like, all right, so I heard what they did, and then I said: but who are you?

When you ask them that question, most people get slightly uncomfortable. So I'm the annoying guy nobody wants to talk to at the cocktail party. But who are you? Think about that, and I would encourage people on this to know who I am personally and professionally. And is that the person that I want to be? And if it's not the person I want to be, how do I get to be that one person? And it's not about, you know, I need to run more, or I need to eat healthier, or, you know, from a values perspective, am I living my values? Am I being true to who I am? And if that's not the case, how do I get there? Because a life where you're not aligned, back to our first topic, with what's inside, is not a life.

I also encourage people not to take the job and lose a great candidate. Have I ever experienced that? Yes, I've experienced it a few times, or many times even, where somebody on paper was a perfect candidate, and everything seemed to fit personality-wise. But they chose not to join us because they didn't feel it was the right fit for them based on everything I had told them.

So it went somewhere else, even if I was ready to hire them. If they have that feeling sitting in that room that day, at the end of the sixth or seventh interview, going in the park, or whatever we were doing, they shouldn't join anyway. You know, the world is a big place. Unless you are a very specialized engineer in San Francisco, it might be hard to find you. But I've always believed that if you create the right environment, you can get people from all over to join you.

So, we would move on to find the next candidate.

Roberto

Yeah, and it reminds me of an idea, which is also a book from Derek Sievers; maybe you know it: Hell, Yes or No. So if it's not a hell, yes, it's no. You also have many other opportunities, and you must be 100% sure that you will invest this time in your life. If not, you'd better find something else. Absolutely.

Peter

And you can apply that to your personal life, right? We have to do some tasks like mowing the lawn and doing laundry. Those are not necessarily hell-yes things. But if we're talking outside domestic logistics, am I spending my life on hell-yes, stuff? Am I friends, people? I'm like, hell yes, I got to spend time with Roberto. Or is it like, ah, f***. Oh, sorry, I can't say that. Oh, oops, I have to spend time with Roberto, right? If that's the case, spend your time on something else.

Roberto

And that's brilliant because it reminds me of another thing: sometimes you say yes to many things because it's in the future. And I have a trick: if this was tomorrow, would I say yes or no? Sometimes you say, oh yes, I'm going to do this, yes, of course. And then when the time comes like, oh. And by the way, this was the feeling we had when we wanted to do this live. For me, at least, it was an instant hell yes. I was as excited today as I was two months ago.

Peter

We certainly know how to have a lot of fun. It's half past four. Do we need to do something different, like wrap-up?

Roberto

I think perhaps one thing, Peter: if someone wants to connect with you or know more about your work and what you're doing, what's the best way to get in touch?

Peter

Well, take note of my name. It's pretty unusual, so I'm easy to find online. I'm very active on LinkedIn. I have a website. They can ask you, and vice versa. Suppose anybody here listening to this knows me and wants to learn more about Roberto's fantastic work, which we haven't discussed today. In that case, I'd be happy to facilitate introductions to Roberto and the stuff he does.

Roberto

Thank you, Peter. It has been so much fun. I learned a lot of things and still have many more questions about the hiring and all the things, but next time. Yeah, exactly. So thank you. Thank you again, Peter. Thank you to everyone who connected and interacted with us and asked terrific questions. You helped us have a better conversation, and we hope it has been helpful to you.

Peter

We'll do it in episode two. We'll do a part two at some point.

It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for watching.

Roberto

Thank you. Bye, everyone.