Key insights from the conversation

The creative practice

• The importance of a daily creative practice, aiming to simplify complexity through visual creation.

• Pejman's story: how he transitioned from writing to visual creation, inspired by teaching experiences and a desire for creative expression.

Role of external validation and social Media

• How to get more motivation from external validation, notably when the work is recognized by admired figures.

• The importance of creative work for personal satisfaction, rather than solely for external validation.

Current challenges and the creative Process

• Balancing time and focusing on meaningful projects amidst various opportunities.

• An approach to limit projects to a few at a time and exploring various directions to maintain creative momentum.

Teaching and impact on others

• Pejman's teaching experience: finding fulfillment in teaching adults and witnessing their creative breakthroughs.

• Impact of teaching: a continuing relationship with students and encouraging their creative journeys.

AI in creativity

• Caution about over-reliance on AI in early creative stages

• AI's utility depends on the individual's creative stage.

Engaging audiences

• Leaving a "curiosity gap" in visuals.

• How audience interaction is enriching and a source of inspiration.

Recharging creativity

• Using a backlog of ideas to maintain the creative flow.

• Inspiration from newsletters, engaging with children, and maintaining a diverse content circle.

Full transcript

Here is the full conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here’s also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn live.

Roberto

It’s great to meet you again PJ! I’m extremely excited to have this conversation, and you are one of my greatest inspirations. I’d love you to introduce yourself first.

Pejman

Thanks, Roberto, for that, we have mutual respect.

I’m PJ Milani, about a couple of years ago I started to create visuals online, to communicate all the ideas I had in my head and present them in a way that is easy and digestible. By doing that it opened these doors of serendipity to be able to connect with folks like yourself and other visual creators and writers online. And so, I've just been riding that wave. I think both of us really strive to simplify complexity through the visuals that we create and present them in a way that other people will be able to kind of remember them and find them to resonate with them long term. So that's like an underlying mission underneath. For me personally, is to encourage people to have a daily creative practice.

Roberto

This is interesting. This is something unique to each one of us, everyone does it for a reason. And I'm curious to hear is what brought you to start this? What brought you to start publishing visual illustrations online.

Pejman

I think if I if I take it a step further back, I started with writing. And I started writing online first. And I started writing because initially, I wanted to do YouTube. This is my twentieth-year teaching. And one of the things my students always ask me is like, “Hey, what are you working on, Mr. Milani?” And I'm like, I have no time to work on anything other than to teach you guys, and you know all that. But over time I started realizing. It's this thing that I kept going back to. It was a desire that I had.

If you've been teaching in your twentieth year, and you haven't been creating consistently and up to that point it feels detached from the creative experience.

So, I was writing in my journal, And I started having like this, deja vu! I started flipping through my diaries, because I had deja vu, and I found an entry that I had written at 31, 10 years before, saying the exact same thing. And so, I decided to start by writing online. And then I started as I started writing online, I realized, one of the things that you can also do to express yourself is to create visuals.

And so, by putting starting to share some work, I started to get more external validation, which encourages my internal motivation is something that Lawrence Lee talks about a lot. Je continuously kind of talks about this balance of how motivated you are personally, and then getting some level of external validation to continue to, build off each other, and that got the

flywheel going. And fast forward, Adam Grant ends up using one of my visuals, and I was like “Oh, my God, Adam Grant I have his books in my bookshelf. How is that even possible, I don't even know him, and then being able to have some kind of interaction with somebody that you admire, and you love their thinking. That was a huge amount of external validation and allowed me to again continue to do the work.

Roberto

There are so many things in common with my experience.

In coaching we say that we cannot take the coachee where we have not been. So, what you said you're teaching, and at the same time, you connect better with your students if you do creative work.

Another thing that also is amazing is that 10 years looks like an eternity, and at the same time, if you look back when you started doing visuals, 2 years ago I remember one day after two years I saw one of your posts, and it went ultra-viral, in one day. You were talking about the external validation, and I see that you didn't care on one side, and at the same time you put the work for one or more year, and then you saw the results. You don't do it for the results. You just do it because you like it, the results don’t have to be the only reason, because if that’s the case not, it's not going to work because everyone will sense that. So, all the effort that you put in the message, and how to craft in a noble way is amazing.

What's your biggest challenge now?

Pejman

It's very much that hockey stick graph in these kinds of pursuits, and where you're starting out. All at once it picks up, and that is something that is a byproduct of doing the day-to-day, day-to-day work. It's not the goal, you know. It's a side effect.

I think the challenge right now is a challenge that it's everyone has; how do you allocate the time in a way that you have towards the things that are most meaningful? That has been the challenge right now, because as you share more and more of your work you start to realize that there are opportunities everywhere. But that's where you can suffer from the shiny object syndrome and trying to figure out: is this a shiny object or is this an opportunity?

Right now, for me, the most meaningful thing has been the course that I've been teaching and helping others kind to learn this stuff and encouraging people again.

The most important thing is to have a daily creative practice. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, trying to make a singular visual and then one day post it. Get the “reps” in. It's like your body. You need to get the reps in to get stronger. The same with your creative muscles. You need to get those reps in, and you get you need to get the full rep to get the full strength.

What about you? You are so prolific!

Roberto

Well, again, there is a lot of overlap what you say. And if I had to say my biggest challenge, something similar of yours: there are so many opportunities, so many interesting things. My strategy for that is just to have 2 or 3 projects the same time, no more. Now it's coaching, visual communication and learning how to use AI. And then one of the other strategies is to take little leaps in various direction, at least to know what is there and write it down for the future.

There is another metaphor: you know we both are parents. When we were expecting children, we saw pregnant women everywhere. It’s probably the same with the creative process. Once you are in the mindset, and you have the habit, and you are looking for these things, these things pop out.

And you asked me, how am I so prolific? It’s probably the habit of looking into something, putting it in the backlog, don't think about it. And then, perhaps at any moment when I'm reading or writing, something comes to mind. So, the having so many things in the backlog makes it feel effortless. It doesn't feel like a chore: this is one of the big secrets for me, never, ever must look like a chore.

You mentioned your course, and I'm curious. I would like to hear from you is what the biggest satisfaction that you have after doing the second cohort of your visual course?

Pejman

The very first course and the very first live session I was so happy, and I was also terrified. I was not sure if my technology was going to work. I had never run a zoom breakout room. There were so many little details that I had never done. I was horrified and terrified, but at the same time my face was just so alive with joy because II had been wanting to teach this stuff for about a year and a half like from the very beginning.

In that experience I so happy, I felt like I was born for this.

And seeing the “aha” moments of the students. I love seeing those moments where they realize something that they didn't know before. Those are the moments I live for. Maybe what's been the most fulfilling thing is seeing that in adults is different than seeing it in high school students; there's value in both.

I always equate teaching like reading a really good book but not knowing the ending, you'll never know the ending unless they message you one day and say, “Hey, this is how I'm applying things that you're you taught me”. It's like a relationship that can continue after you've taught the course. For instance, one of the students from the course posted on LinkedIn her first visuals that she's sharing with the world. And I love seeing that.

Roberto

And it's not the same what you know until you must teach it. The fact that you must teach it and put it out, brings you to another level, and you must do extra work to internalize it much more.

I can really feel your enthusiasm, your passion for what to do, and the satisfaction of seeing the creativity in other people, and how it's something that every one of us has, and you bring it out.

That has some similarities to the coaching process. One of the pillars of the co-active coaching model is that we believe that people are naturally creative, full of resources and whole. And this is exactly the philosophy that you have behind your course, because if you didn't believe that you wouldn't do that, and there is no difference between an adult and a child, because we both have the creative part. We just must bring it out.

Pejman

And it's not a habit anymore for adults. Kids just kind in into the playground to play. You must encourage an adult; they might have fun playing with the playground as well.

I remember a Q&A session, a person said that never considered himself as someone who could do creative work this way, and the fact that the door opened for him to be able to do that, and he starts to believe that, and starts to see that it's possible, was joyful. You can't put a price on those kinds of realizations. It's so fulfilling.

I also want to encourage people to say: “look, it doesn't have to be accurate. Your art doesn't have to be precise.

It must be interesting” and there's a difference with all that. And I like to say “it's not about making things pretty. It's about making things pithy.”

Roberto

And I’d like to ask you what place does AI have in all this? What's your vision?

Pejman

As far as we use it as a tool for creative expression, is it's a bit tricky one, because part of what makes us stronger as creatives is going through the full rep. Again, full muscular rep, and what AI has the potential to do is to eliminate some of that physical exertion. Think of it as mental exertion. I'm not a purist in the sense that you shouldn't use AI, but it is to be mindful in how we're using it and eyes wide open so that you're not blindsided. If you're using it as a thinking or brainstorming tool. What are we losing by not recording things?

In my course I talk visuals must be cool as “ice”. I-C-E stands for intention, capture and examine.

You set your intention on this piece of content, then you put it into your subconscious by capturing it, and by having that intention by you doing that exertion, it contributes to the quality of the ideas that we have.

We're going to have a different relationship with AI than people who are starting, who will not need to bridge that gap if they use AI, and I think there's something lost in that. What problems are we solving? But what problems are we creating?

I think we are going to have a different relationship with the tool depending on what stage we are in.

I see a potential problem if we use AI too strongly early on, in our creative cycle of developing a more creative soul.

Roberto

Yes, it depends on the stage you are. If you are in a certain stage, you can use the tools, knowing that you already have the basis. But then, if you are doing this for the first time, perhaps it's taking out part of the learning. And this reminds me one thing that you told me that in your visual you always want the people to do one little step, or at least try to put something on their own.

Pejman

The analogy I use is this: we draw a circle. Most people think, they need to draw the full circle for my audience, and so that they see the circle. And my argument is as the creators, what we do is we create the circle, but we leave a little bit at the edge of that circle, that gap, and that gap is where our audience comes in and fills that gap. That's what I call “the Curiosity Gap”. If we involve the audience into our visual, we invite them into the visual, to come up with their own interpretation, they become an active participant versus a passive one. And we have a conversation with not is not like shouting things out and see what bounces and what not.

Roberto

I love this. Many very interesting things came out from comments in my post, and I had books, recommendation, articles, new illustrations ideas, and a lot of inspiration.

We have some questions in the chat. A question from the audience: “What has changed for you in your daily life since becoming famous on social media. Do you even feel famous? And do you feel successful?”

What an interesting question! First, I think I don't feel like famous. What I feel is that it's amazing to see how, when you put out the things you like, it like attracts other people who likes the same stuff. “Your vibe attracts your tribe”: I really believe in that, and it's the beautiful part of communicating online, you to put out the things that you like, and if it resonates, you might as well connect with the person, and it is so satisfying because we then may have a conversation. What do you think?

Pejman

I would say not a whole lot has changed for me personally, other than being able to have the opportunity to connect with interesting folks like yourself. Outside of that, not a whole lot has changed for me just psychologically, because for me, it's about that creative practice.

Let's say you have, however, many thousands of followers and you're not happy doing the thing that you're doing. But you feel like you must create this kind of content to maintain your presence because they know you for this thing.

And if that’s the case, you must change it. Again, I'm not trying to change my career, I'm doing this as an additional thing that I think is fun for me, and meaningful, and I want to encourage other people to do creative things.

I have a visual about this, and I use it in the course at the end, which is a little flow chart, which is: publish today. If people like it, or if people don't like it, you publish again tomorrow, and if you're if you have that mindset, then it frees you, it's very liberating. There are times when I've created something, and I hesitate to put it out because I don't know if it'll do well, and then I catch myself, and I say “what the hell are you thinking? Stop it. Post the work. It doesn't matter, because tomorrow you're going to do another one” And by having that daily creative practice I still enjoy making it, and I know, tomorrow I'm going to create something else.

Roberto

It’s also not having expectations. It’s just for fun and for yourself, it’s a healthy approach.

Another question from the audience: “what recharges your creativity?”

I can answer first, I don't have any ritual. It's the habit of noticing and writing down everything and putting it into the backlog. This helps a lot, and this just takes out a lot of the “pressure” to be creative. No, I just must write down the things that interest me. And then, when I want to do something, I dive into my backlog and pick what looks like more interesting and fun at this moment. What about you?

Pejman

Anytime I'm reading a newsletter, ideas spark for me. Maybe it's because the people I've selected, I select people that tell stories.

and are rich in their writing with their metaphors. You know the quote “You're the average of the 5 people that you spend most time with”. I think you're the average of the 5 pieces of content that you consume. So, if the goal is to be creative it's important to preserve the circle of content that you consume, because all those feeds into your energy.

We also both have young kids, and I can sit down next to my kids and draw and ask them feedback on the visual. We're also teaching our children, we're engaging in creative practice, they become curious about that, and that's recharging to me, too. Those things are funny enough, very recharging for me because they're engaged in creativity with me. That makes it more a good thing to do. It's a healthy thing to do, and it's a fulfilling thing.

Roberto

Another question from the audience: “what are the main tools or apps you use?”

Pejman

I use procreate, which is which is a great one. I would say when you're learning something initially it's helpful to eliminate as much of learning the tool as possible. A tool that has too much versatility also has additional complexity, and that can limit what you're thinking about when you engage with creating content or creating anything. I start everything with pen and paper, there's a lot of argument to be made on using just a pen and paper. It's harder to recycle assets, still, as far as on the thinking side of things that can be incredibly useful. Again, it's a full rep. And so I’II encourage people not to focus too much on the tools.

Early on I think you can just use pen and paper, Affinity Designer is great, Figma is great. Procreate is great. The tool is just a vehicle for you to get your ideas on crystallized.

Roberto

To wrap up, how can we reach you?

Pejman

For me the best way to keep tabs of what I'm doing like on a weekly basis is my newsletter. And of course, there's my course.

Roberto

It's a been a pleasure to talk to you again. Thank you for the people who joined in. Thank you for the questions.

Pejman

Thanks again, Roberto. It's been super fun. And yeah, hopefully, we'll get to chance to do this again.