Key insights from the conversation

Personal and journey, and mental health in society

• Martin's personal sroty Background: Early career in tech: Worked in the British consortium creating the smartphone industry and later at Skype.

• The approach of using measurable data in mental health, akin to metrics in sports or business.

• Generational and cultural reluctance to discuss mental health, especially among men. Asking for help.

Mental health and children

• Pressure on children, social media, and academic expectations exacerbate mental health issues.

• Example of embracing Roberto’s son’s autism diagnosis and the importance of open communication at work and home.

Leadership and workplace dynamics

• Creating psychological safety: the role of leaders in fostering trust and openness in teams.

• Sharing personal struggles can strengthen team bonds and encourage a culture of support.

• Mental health affects productivity; leaders must balance professional and personal challenges.

Men’s Mental Health

• Breaking barriers: men often avoid seeking help due to societal expectations of masculinity.

• Initiatives to raise awareness about men’s mental health and conversations to reduce stigma.

Educational systems and emotional intelligence

• The importance of teaching emotional intelligence, resilience, and empathy alongside academics.

• Advocating for “whole school well-being” involving parents, teachers, and students.

• Younger generations demand better work-life balance and mental health support, challenging traditional workplace norms.

New challenges in awareness, and call to action

• Martin discussed his involvement in workplace studies on menopause, focusing on raising awareness among men.

• Call for more empathy in addressing domestic abuse and suicide, emphasizing the power of conversations.

• Encouragement to companies to implement support systems for employees, with policies like those addressing domestic abuse.

Full transcript

Here is the full conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here’s also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn live.

Roberto

Hi, Martin.

Martin

Hey, Roberto. Thanks for having me.

Roberto

Hello, hi to the people who are connected. We will not check the chat in the first part of the conversation, but in the middle, we will see if you have any questions. And, of course, we invite you to ask questions if you have something for Martin or if something that we talk about makes you wonder or have any doubts. We are delighted to see what's there.

Thank you so much, Martin, for doing this with me. I'm very excited about it. We've been talking about it for many months, and time flies.

Yeah, and I also remember how we connected thanks to another person in the community who just sent a message here, Lionel. I want to thank you for being here, for taking this time, for blocking this space and also thank the people who are connected now and investing one hour of their time, which is our most valuable asset.

My first question, Martin, would be: What's your story? What made you decide to work with companies in the mental health space? I'm very curious.

Martin

Like anything, I guess the best answer is it's complicated. But yeah, I was one of the early employees at the British industry consortium that created the smartphone industry; it should be said that everyone thinks it's all Californian, but the Brits led the charge way back when. Then, I went on to help Skype disintermediate global telecoms.

But a few years ago, I went into my cave. I was struggling with depression. What I now know as PTSD is a result of the childhood trauma of seeing my mum being sectioned when I was a kid. And I'd always lived with it but hadn't found the medium to do something about it.

When I came out of my cave, I sought therapy; also, a little bit later than that, my wife struggled with burnout at a time when all she needed was just the ability to work from home for one day a week. But it was pre-pandemic. Everyone was like, ought to be bums on seats.

So, a few serendipitous things happened. I had a great conversation with a lady in Geneva, an occupational health psychologist who measured well-being and global well-being for the UN and the International Red Cross. Studies were conducted to measure the well-being of 40,000 people. And so, as a few factors combined, I realized I was bored of tech and wasn't enjoying it anymore. I came up with a phrase bouncing around my head at the time: there has to be more to life than firing angry birds at pigs. And as I said, a few things happened, a few life events happened, and that led to me going all in on mental health.

Roberto

When you tell the story, you talk about measurement. And this is something that you very much stress, numbers and statistics, but simultaneously, you do it warmly. So, what are some statistics about something that we would never think is real?

Martin

I call it the story behind the data. And I'd like to say there was some magic and some coms and some stuff behind it, but it's just one of these days when I was building my website and working with a copywriter, bouncing some ideas back and forth, this kind of thing, just, the phrase fell into our lap. Because we talk so much about mental health and well-being, we use data now in so many facets of our lives, like seeing how many kilometers or meters your favorite footballer runs on the pitch, how many assists they've given a goal, or whether it's the return on investment to build a new factory or something.

But we don't use it to measure well-being and mental health, even though the academic instruments have all been there for about the last 10 years or so to do that. So, it was trying to bring a different viewpoint and use it as a starting point for discussion.

So, for example, it's Movember at the moment. As you know, I have a love-hate relationship with awareness months and days. If we did our job correctly, we would discuss mental health and well-being 365 days a year, but I'll take what I can get. It helps raise awareness and helps companies. OK, what have we done in the last year to move the needle a bit?

But for Movember, the three steps I love are that 40% of men have never spoken to anyone about their mental health or well-being.

And that's by anyone, their best friend, loved ones, parents, GP, and even they internalize all that emotion. One in three men would rather clean the entire house than speak and visit a doctor. I was there at one point, too. I was a little bit when I was in my cave. I was subsequently diagnosed with sleep apnea and extreme sleep apnea, and now I also have type 2 diabetes. If I had gone to the doctor earlier and not procrastinated, would that have changed things? But yeah, I mean stats, we use them in every facet of our life, so why not use them to talk about mental health and well-being?

Roberto

Yeah, and thank you for sharing this story, Martin. You work with that and have also been there, so you know how it is. And when you mentioned that you decided to get help, what was the trigger?

Martin

So, I think there was a conversation I had with somebody. So, I witnessed my mum being sectioned. I was probably about five. Being sectioned in the UK in the 1970s typically meant that you were put into some psychiatric institution, often against your will, and force-fed pills for an indefinite period.

And that was towards the end of the late 1970s. I was conversing with someone, a psychotherapist or psychiatrist, a guy with lots of letters after his name, Big Brain. And he told me that in the UK today, 140 people will be sectioned for mental health disorders.

So that's approximately 45 years after my mum was sectioned. As a society, in some ways, we haven't moved forward. We're talking about mental health more than we've ever done before.

But when you look at the impact on people's lives, and whether it's suicide, whether it's being sectioned, in some ways, we've learned nothing at all. And I think that was horrifying all at the same time. And I believe that statistic, or knowing that, works out at something like 50,000 people.

You know, if you look at it over a year. In Switzerland today, it's even worse. So, if you look at the population sizes of the UK versus Switzerland, while there are 140 people in the UK, it's closer to 300 here in Switzerland today. But that's for mental and behavioral disorders. And it was the realization that this is still going on in what should be a very, we have pretty good living standards, et cetera. But, you know, we have good access to healthcare for the most part. And yet, this is going on under our noses. That was a massive shock for me.

Roberto

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And even more when I hear that Switzerland has even higher ratios. It's counterintuitive because I see Switzerland as a country with a very high standard of living. And in general, even if we don't talk about Switzerland, the richer, the more advanced a country is, the more wealth there is, the better the well-being of the people. And what's your experience on that?

Martin

Yeah, it's a problem in a rich country. It's not exclusive to Switzerland. You look at a lot of the economies that put a lot of, you know, at the top of the innovation table, the patents tables, et cetera. And they all struggle because of the pressure on kids at such a young age for academic performance. Switzerland, along with Spain and Portugal, has some of the worst mental health in kids across Europe.

And yeah, it's just we're putting such pressure on kids to perform academically and trying to give them pathways to go on to university, et cetera, that we're not allowing kids to be kids. And then you throw social media into the mix. The fact that a lot of kids now are living, you know, if you're living abroad, it's well documented that kids who come from expat families have worse mental health than that of domestic kids, throw in divorce, other family situations into the melting pot. Yeah, it's difficult for kids today. And there's another stat, which again is none of these in some way is painting a good picture, but 50% of all mental health disorders are present by the age of 14. So it might live there dormant.

But because of the pressures we're putting on kids from an academic perspective, social media is playing havoc on our prefrontal cortex, and we're making decisions based on emotions rather than facts. All of that, yeah, makes for what can be quite a difficult childhood. I know, look, OK, my situation was very different in some ways, but that PTSD came out only in the last 10 years or so for me, or a knowledge that I had PTSD as a result of witnessing what happened to my mum and I didn't know my mum as a result of her mental health struggles. So, it took me a while. I've been saying this: I've been doing a couple of presentations on men's mental health, in particular during Movember.

So it's a little bit easier to say it now, but I've been saying that it's taken me 49 years and an MHFA, mental health first aid course, and quite a lot of therapy to be able to share that with you. But it feels good to talk about it as well. And it's liberating as well.

Roberto

Yeah, and thank you, Martin, for sharing this. One of the things is that, especially now, you share the statistics. How is it that it's so challenging to talk about these things? First of all, talk about this issue. And second, for men, especially for men, what do you think there is behind that?

Martin

So mental health doesn't discriminate. Irrespective of gender, we all have the same struggles. In men, it tends to be more terminology like substance abuse or PTSD, depression, anxiety, et cetera. On the other hand, our struggles are the same, but it's how we're taught to deal with them. That's the difference.

OK, I grew up with my dad and my stepmom. And even today, my dad is 81. I try and hug him, and it feels like I'm hugging a block of ice. There's, it's, you know, there's no, he doesn't lean in, it's kind of like, you know, hugging just someone. And you hug him because he's your father, but you don't feel that you get that tactile nature back. But my dad's generation comes from even the word stigma for my dad. When I told him I was going into mental health, we had a row about the use of the word stigma because, for him, that's a dirty word. And that's before we even get on talking about mental health.

So, indeed, as a kid, if I struggled, I hid behind "I'm fine," like many men do today. And I was told to pull myself together to keep a stiff upper lip. You'll get through it. You know, it's just a thing. It's just a phase. It's just a thing. So it's hard for a long time. Men have been told just to, you know, keep yourself upbeat and pull yourself together, and you'll pull through it. We're not taught to show any vulnerability or emotions. We're like this outdated idea of masculinity that we can't show any vulnerability; we can't cry. Even hugging, you know, I love to hug my male friends, and sometimes you see people like you can see in the corner of their eyes in the pub, especially why are guys hugging?

But for me, it's a beautiful expression of emotion. But for a lot of people still, men struggle with that because they've learned that from their parents, and now it's been passed generational behavior. We are socialized much more than we ever acknowledge how much we've absorbed from our folks. And that makes it difficult.

Roberto

And when you say that, you're talking about the kids. And if I think about my kids, for example, my daughter and my son, they give me the same hug. There is no difference in how my son gives a hug and how my daughter does. And it's, yeah, there's something they can also teach us. It's things that have no expectation, no conditioning, nothing. So how can we allow them to express that and simultaneously show them that it's OK to express this thing, and it's part of life? You don't have to hide it. You can be frustrated, sad, disappointed, and many other things. It's OK. How can we do that? What's your take?

Martin

Yeah, I mean, it's a cliche. So we work with schools. We can measure mental health in schools for kids from grade three and upwards of seven. But when it boils down to it, teaching kids that it's OK not to be OK is the best thing you can do. And the sooner you can encourage a kid in class or at home to stick their hand up and say, I don't feel great today. And the sooner you can instill that value in that child, the better they will be, the more resilient they will be in life and know that it's OK. We've lived for so long where men believe, you know, showing any weakness is a chink in their armor, is a vulnerability. I've discussed it extensively on LinkedIn, and it sometimes feels like a broken record.

This phrase, you know, asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. But even today, even in 2024, we need to keep saying it and saying it.

Roberto

Yeah. And I also add that we need to see them in others. So if we see someone we respect or someone close to us do that, we say, OK, maybe it's also happening to something similar to us or in a different situation. But then we see that person asking. And when I see someone asking for help, or they are saying, I'm not feeling good today, I'm pissed off, or I'm disappointed at this, I don't think you are weak or a wrong person. So why should I fear that if I don't think someone says that to me? At the same time, it's a way to show that we appreciate and care for the other person. Because if I value our relationship, I will be more open and trusting with you. So it's a sign of trust.

Martin

And this is it; if anyone listening or watching this thinks back to the last time someone came up to you and asked you for help, did you think less of them as a result of that? No. If anything, they went up in your esteem.

So this judgment and stigma is living rent-free up here. And as men, in particular, we're crap at putting our hand up. At the same time, when we see other people struggling, we also want to come up with solutions and answers because that's how man was built. We come, we make fire and everything else. But, just saying to someone, I can see you're not, something's wrong. How can I help? It cuts through all the need to be a subject matter expert on anything.

It works professionally and in your personal life and shows someone you care. It's simple, but many guys avoid the situation, bury their heads in the sand, and become a vicious circle because they think they must come up with it.

Roberto

Absolutely. This also reminds me of a different plane in coaching: you don't give a solution. Never. It's different from the coach's goal to fix the problem. If there is a problem, the topic is to listen, ask questions, and connect with the person to make them feel seen. Then, each of us will come up with our solution and resources and have this space to be seen and listened to. And it still needs to be more familiar.

Martin

Yeah, the problem is we are all guilty of it. When someone's talking, you're automatically thinking of a solution. We need to follow the 80-20 rule of listening 80% of the time. It's easier said than done. It does require a lot of practice and patience, even now. But sometimes, taking a breath and stepping back can help enormously.

Roberto

Absolutely. And this reminds me of something that we are here now. We're talking as if we knew everything. And it's not, of course, like this. We are human. We have been all through this, and we will. One thing you said about this reminds me of a conversation with my wife when I do it sometimes. Of course, it's not only my wife. And when my wife tells me something, I tend to jump to this solution mode, especially with my wife or people very close to us. So when I catch myself, which sometimes I don't, I ask her, OK, are you telling me this because you want my advice, my opinion, or to share? And then, most of the time, she says, no, I want to share with you. OK.

So, the more I do it, the more I get it. I don't need to give solutions. I need to listen and ask another question. When someday something happens, or I see something, I say, OK, it looks like something is going on. Do you want to talk about that? No, no, no. OK, that's fine. I'm here if you wish.

Martin

You are just giving her the space. Happy wife, happy life is a phrase we use a lot. But I also added that sometimes people won't answer when you ask them how you are. We do this on talk and listen to sessions for men online with a great guy in the UK called Zane, a big strapping ex-copper New Zealand guy. And we always ask people at the beginning of the call, how are you? And we ask them to give them a number out of 10 of their feelings. So one being meh, bad day, 10, top of the world. But we always say you're not allowed to choose seven. It's the numerical equivalent of "I'm fine." And taking seven off the table forces you to reflect on your feelings.

And sometimes just doing that and then asking how are you doing? When someone asks, OK, that's the mask. And then you add really to it, and the mask slips, and they will give you hopefully a more honest answer.

Roberto

Yes. Yeah. Thank you for that example, Martin. Now that you say this, I'm fine. It reminds me of the classic answer when we asked this at work. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm fine. And, in your experience, what's the connection with work? How do all these things apply in the world of work?

Martin

There's still some debate on whether we should be talking about mental health and well-being at work. Some people say you should bring your whole self to work; what you see is what you get. And others think, you know, there should be clear boundaries between my personal and professional life. I'm biased. So you can't; it's exhausting to mask what's happening in your life. My life is relatively simple because we don't have kids. We live together, we have a furry friend. He requires going out three times a day. We don't have the pressures of caregiving for ill relatives.

Divorce, all these types of life events that sweep us up in midlife. And I struggle sometimes just trying to be me because there's this belief that because you work in mental health, you always have your shit together, which is a complete fallacy. I apologize for my French. I wobble as much as the next person. I'm much better now this year at understanding what is causing that wobble, and I have a lot more techniques for dealing with it. But you posted something recently about the Helsinki. Was it a photographer or cinematographer in an accepted speech? Yes. Yeah. So, hit this theory that all the buses leave Helsinki traveling the same route.

And then, at some point in time, they will all diverge to go off to their destinations. When life gets tough, you need to stay on the bus. I believe I was the... I'm butchering the poor guy's work, but the idea is that you stay on the bus and don't get off just because life is tough. And this time last year, I almost got off the bus many times because it was my role. My emotional rollercoaster was exhausting.

Mental health is a complex subject anyway, irrespective of what's going on in life, but then doing it as your day job can be challenging, especially when you're talking about things like suicide, with kids, self-harm, or anyone who has to go through that. So, you do need tips and techniques to manage your emotions. I'm just much better at managing them this year, that's for sure.

So, back to your question about work, when we spend 90,000 hours of our life at work, some people can probably mask five days a week. And if they can, chapeau hats off to them, great. But life gets in the way for everyone who is impacted, just a human. It's raw, it's real. Shit happens, and that's going to affect your work, and they say that I think something like 70% of people is more impacted; their mental health is impacted more by their manager than by their doctor.

That says all you need to know about it. And it's part of, again, psychological safety, being human, bringing your whole self to work, that sense of belonging. We do our best work when we have that cocoon, that safety net. Otherwise, we're just whistling in the wind.

Roberto

Yeah, absolutely. Also, if we have a safe space or secure base, as George Kohlrieser would call it, in our work and our colleagues, if we have some struggle in our personal life, we can ask for help. It can be heard there. And again, when you talk about the manager, how important it is the manager's role to create this safe space, to create psychological safety, and even normalize these things.

When I heard one of my managers talking about his struggles, I said, "OK, and it also allows you to do the same." And I also did it sometimes. I say, "OK, today I'm very stressed because X and Z happened, and I want you to know it because you will see it." I cannot put the mask on the time. You will see that. And I prefer that you know it and that it's not about you. It's about me.

It's about what happened this morning or yesterday. So please forgive me if I'm rude or say something out of my line. This is my context. Of course, this does not permit me to be disrespectful. It's letting people know that I'm human and have some issues to work on. And then what happened? Those people helped me. Also, we had more trust after that.

Martin

It builds, it's an incredible facility. Well, facility is the wrong word, but it's incredible when you let your guard down and share something about your life. Whether it's you're struggling to conceive as a family, and you're going through IVF, or you have a parent who has dementia or someone who's in palliative care, final stages of life, a child who's neurodivergent. It's part of what makes us human, and we can't be this robotic persona, even all the time. We are hugely impacted by what goes on outside of work. Because I know for you particularly, you have people with your son, and you've shared very openly about his struggles with his neurodivergence. How has that been? Did you? How much of a struggle was it for you to come forward and share that with your colleagues?

Roberto

Thank you, Martin, for asking this. This is one of the examples that was so surprising. You lose from one day to another; somehow, you lose something. I lost the idea that I was going to have, let's say, a normal life. You talk about the expectations of kids. I had my expectations.

Roberto

And then my expectation was less, OK, they're not going to be. So you have to deal with that first. When I started to deal with that, I said, OK, what will I do at work? Because I want to be present with my son. I want to give him the best possible care, the time, and the attention because now I know what's there. And I know that I can do something. At the same time, it will have some effect on my work. I want to be doing good work.

But if I don't tell them, I have the mask again. What are you doing? So I decided to tell the people, the whole team. I said, OK, we'll use one of our team meetings. I said, OK, you know, something happened. My son has been diagnosed with autism. And for the next months and weeks, I will be very present. So I ask you to help me manage this and rearrange something so we can still do our best. And actually, the team members' response was the warmest possible. People reached out and said, I have a friend who is doing this, who's doing this therapy or session. They offer the resources. So it was like, wow. I was surprised, positively, of course. I did not expect them to accept it, but I didn't expect such a warm and generous response.

So, if I can encourage someone who is maybe listening to this recording or now and has the same, don't hesitate because this is one of the biggest gifts that we can also give to our kids. When we accept that and share this at the same time, we let go of some of the expectations. So I'll say, OK, I said it. Now, what can we do? And then you can move on. Because if not, again, when you put the mask in some way, maybe you are denying it. And no, it is happening. One of the things that's very painful to me is when someone tells me of kids with neurodivergence just being diagnosed or has some suspect of something going on, and the parents are not seeing that and acting like no, no, it's nothing, it's nothing.

So painful to see that. Because, as you said, 14 years. You mentioned the statistic at 14; everything is set. And then, of course, you can work on that. But these are so essential years.

Martin

Yeah, it gets worse is the wrong word, but by the time we're 25, 75% of mental illnesses have their onset. So these formative years are so important. It's lovely that you can get your son the support, the therapy, and the help that he needs, but also, you as a family need to get through it. There's one in five of us, a neurodivergent. And it used to be this thing, certainly in the seventies and eighties, that there was something else. What's wrong with you? You know, we look back to Rain Man and things like this. And it was seen as some, you know, he's, something's out of whack was the language used. It just means our brains are wired slightly differently.

No, nothing more. But it's the perception that people still think of things like Dustin Hoffman and Rain Man rather than, yeah, more, let's say, a more positive outlook. But what great things we're seeing? Well, it's an incredible thing. It's an excellent way to say it, but thankfully, more people like yourself are sharing. And that helps normalize the conversation. And that's the only way we can move forward as a society. And people do realize that we're not alone. And with your colleagues, there was probably someone there who was also in the same boat. Then, you can share what you learn. This worked for me, this didn't work for me, but people just knowing they're not alone is a huge comfort factor in whatever your struggle is.

Roberto

Absolutely. Now that you say that, I'm curious, and time flies. It's already past half. Let's check the chat to see if we have any comments or questions. We invite you again if you have any; put them in the chat, and we can discuss them. Let's see.

Miguel is talking about schools, and it needs to start at school age until we have the generation who is there today entering the workforce. We need to help people to do so in the workforce, which I see as the school for adults. You want to add something to this, Martin.

Martin

We're seeing Gen Z, as we call them now, coming into the workforce and demanding that our generation certainly go. Yeah, we almost push back and think, no. Still, they are becoming much more aware of their mental health and well-being and what works for them and what doesn't, whether it's hybrid working or the ability to go to the gym at 11 o'clock; people demand flexibility from their employers and demand that their employers give them a work-life balance.

But from a school perspective, schools are trying hard to do the right thing, but it's so difficult. They've got so, it's more than just education. And when they went through the pandemic, teachers had to do spit tests as well as keep the kids' grades on track and stuff like that. It's tough. But even as I've been talking to a school, I won't narrow down the geography because it will try to preserve some confidentiality. But there was a girl who hung herself in a dormitory at the boarding school over Easter.

And will that trigger the school to invest in mental health and well-being? And the school was like, they weren't sure. They didn't want to open Pandora's box. And so it got pushed out to the next academic year. So even when you have a life event as tragic as that, unfortunately, schools, I mean, they're between a rock and a hard place for sure.

Parents in particular, some parents as you touched upon, don't want to share their experiences maybe because they had a bad experience of school as well themselves or they were have been brought up to think you know the child should be seen and not heard and these types of phrases that certainly was kind of rammed into me you know as a kid but the sooner we kind of let children and acknowledge their emotions, and we touched on this earlier. Still, giving them the vehicle to do that, school is no longer about academic success. That shouldn't be the benchmark of a child's success anymore. You know, how well-rounded, how empathetic, how much compassion they have, how much resilience they have, they should all be elements that are just as important, if not more, in their curiosity, their emotional intelligence.

There's a great quote by Daniel Goleman, the father of emotional intelligence. He says that 20% of our success in life is down to our IQ. And 80% is down to our emotional intelligence. And sometimes we're obsessed with letters after our name, coaching certificates, certificates for whatever, you name it. And LinkedIn doesn't help either because it encourages you to say, I've just got this qualification, whatever. And that's great for people because I believe in continuous learning. But I know that for kids to get to 16 or 18 and go on to university, there's so much pressure on them today. We have to do better. There has to be a better way.

Roberto

And especially when things go so fast, who knows if what you are studying and getting these rates will be helpful in four years. And one in 20, who never, no one knows. So, I cannot agree more that the life skills we teach the kids are much more important than the hard ones. And it doesn't mean that it's unimportant, but as you said, curiosity, how to problem solve, how to deal with your emotions, how to handle frustration. So important. And being a father of a neurodivergent kid, and probably I'm the same as my kid, I know how important it is to manage your frustration and know that it will pass. But if you don't, you can get stuck. So this is so, so, so important.

I'm optimistic simultaneously because I see my kids in school starting to do this; they are beginning to talk about these things. We ask them questions and send comments to the teachers about what we did over the weekend. How was my son Luca? How was Valentina? And we have this kind of conversation. So, I'm optimistic at the same time. I know things go slow, but I see some sun rays.

Martin

Yeah, that's fair, and the kids can only be given so much if the teachers are in a good place. You know, if the teachers are struggling, let's say that they're a single parent. For example, it puts other notes and unique pressure on them. And they have to. You're asking them to bring almost the burden of responsibility for a teacher, which is much harder to say; I'm just going to stay in bed today. You can do that, but they don't; their sense of responsibility is much higher. But if the teachers aren't in a good place, if they're struggling with whatever life is throwing at them, then they can't give the kids the best, their full attention.

It's very much the Australians do... We can learn so much from the Australians regarding mental health and well-being, but they had this phrase they call whole school well-being. So it's looking at the mental health literacy of parents, staff well-being, and the kids. And if you've got all that working in harmony, having transparency around conversations about mental health and well-being, opening Pandora's box, and not hiding anything, then as a school and institution, that's setting yourself up for success.

Roberto

Thank you. Let's see if we have more questions. Miguel is talking about how you are doing. Again, the question. Thank you, Miguel.

I have one question about the questions: of course, this is a very public place. We are live; we are on LinkedIn. And what usually happens when you open up your session, in your conversation, when you open up the Q&A space? What's your experience with these topics that are so personal, deep, and human that we all experience them?

Martin

Yeah, that's a good question. So, I've just done two sessions for corporates here in Switzerland during November. I won't name them, but two big, well, one of the top four consultancy firms in the world and another big financial services company. Two-thirds of their employees are men, and we did two sessions for them on men's mental health.

We created a was on Zoom because it was all the locations worldwide. Had the opportunity to dial in. At the very beginning, I put my email address on the screen, saying, you need to figure out how to stick your head above the parapet; email me. And I'll read your question when we come to the Q&A, but I won't name you. I'll mention your question and hopefully answer it, and then, when the session is over, I will delete it. And after about 40 minutes, we came to the Q&A for the financial services company. We had over 100 people online, and no one had asked a question in the chat. I looked at my phone, picked my phone up, and scrolled to my email. My email was lighting up. And it wasn't just short questions.

Someone was asking me about how they found their purpose. I'm saying, you know, I'm 30, and this is my particular situation in life; how do I find my purpose? And so, there are some meaty questions that you almost struggle to answer in such a short space of time, but I was very pleased with that because somehow we created that safe space for them to ask. But even in that session, we're all the only guys; the company did very well to say this is a space for men only, which is very rare in this when we all try to be so inclusive today. Even then, when they know it's just other men on the call, no one wants to put their head above the parapet. And that is the stigma that we're facing around men's mental health today.

We're talking about it more than we've ever done before, but for a lot of guys, those who don't want to clean the house or would instead change a flat tire on their car, I think it's one in four, would instead change a flat tire than go to the doctor. We've still got a long way to go. But as we've discussed this, a friend and I, Carl, are doing a road show for Movember. We're going around a few Swiss cities doing fireside chats on men's mental health. And we say, if we can help one person during all of our sessions, all of our conversations, if we can help one person who might be struggling or at the very worst, you know, thinking of stepping off into the abyss, then it will all be worth it. And this is why conversations like this are so meaningful.

We're talking about it—conversation and camaraderie—and even if it's one conversation at a time, we'll get there. But it will take time and require a lot of patience.

Roberto

Thank you. Regarding patience, time, and the future, what excites you most now?

Martin

We started at OT measuring well-being in schools and pivoted a little bit into staff well-being because it doesn't matter whether you work in a school or a chocolate factory; the instruments to measure psychosocial risks are all the same, irrespective of the work environment. And there's a lot of interest from people who are interested but need to be committed.

So projects were coming in, but not big bang, holistic, systemic change. And I love to talk about topics that society still considers taboo. So, you know, I talk about, much more open about sharing my mum's struggles, as we've talked about.

One of those things, one of those topics that is hugely taboo in 2024, is menopause. So, menopause is a stage of life that is inevitable for over half the global population. And yet, as a society, we don't talk about it.

So we've just concluded Switzerland's most extensive study on the impact of menopause in the workplace for the second year running. And one of the things that I'm most interested in is, as on the back of that research, quantitative and qualitative, a lot of people are saying, I want to learn more about this in the workplace. If the leadership teams have some awareness or understanding, they may have more empathy for the topic. And so we're just starting from January, February, going to start doing menopause awareness sessions just for men.

That way, we can raise much more awareness of the topic. Guys can create a safe space where they can ask silly questions. I did a straw poll over the summer of my ten friends. Not one of them could give me a decent answer on what menopause means or how long it lasts. I won't put you on the spot on this.

Roberto

I would be one of them. I would be one of them, of course. Yeah, absolutely. And that's so important. Now we are talking about this, and you just brought up this topic, and absolutely. I'm living proof, and I will check it, of course. I'm curious about them now. And yes, half of the people will happen. We have to know. Yes.

Martin

It's a natural stage of life, but we talk about it like it's something terrible, like women are, their well-being or their health is declining, but it's the language we use around it that's also wrong. So I've somehow got myself, you know, I used to love drawing Venn diagrams as a kid. I was crap at maths, but I remember Venn diagrams, and somehow, I've got myself into this position where most of my conversations there are around men's mental health and menopause. So, these are two distinct, separate topics, but most of the demand for discussions with companies is going down that road right now. So, I'm super excited to see where that goes.

And that's not something you said to me even 18 months ago, two years ago. As a man, you know, you'll be talking about menopause and giving keynotes at summits on the topic of well-being for women. That's fascinating and scary because I'm not a subject matter expert. But I know more than your average guy if you've done two studies on the topic. And if I can help.

Roberto

Yeah. And you mentioned one thing that popped into my mind in the previous conversation. We talked about the allies, and you have a lot of allies who are female. Now, males can also be allies to this because we can be empathetic. We have to know what's happening on the other side. And as a man, I am a father. I am my wife. I have to, I want to know. I want to have this empathy and have this conversation. It's important. Thank you.

Martin

And if we can use those team dynamics, so important, you talk about sharing up around your son's struggles of neurodivergence. Men should be able to be more aware of the topic. Some women will get very few symptoms and better sail relatively through unhindered. But for the vast majority of women out there, the symptoms are as unique as our fingerprints, and most women will last between seven to 15 years.

It's a hell of a phase of life with no empathy or awareness from male colleagues, husbands, or partners. So, we can make guys better in the workplace, and the learnings we'll give them will feed through and make them better husbands and partners at home.

Roberto

Absolutely. Time flies, Martin. I have two more questions. First, If someone wants to reach out to you, what's the best way?

Martin

LinkedIn. I have a love-hate relationship with social media. Still, it's hard for my mental health, so I can only keep a conversation going on LinkedIn before I can't do TikTok or Instagram or anywhere like that, so LinkedIn must whack in my name into LinkedIn and send me a connection request. It's probably the easiest way. Thank you.

Roberto

Of course, we will put everything in the chat and the notes, including the links. Before we wrap up, I have one more question: If you could choose, what would you like to see more and less of in the world?

Martin

Loaded question. I could go on for that. I would like to see more. Maybe it's a bit of a heavy topic to end on, but I'd like to see more empathy for two things—domestic abuse and suicide. So we've been talking for about an hour now. By now 65 males will have died by suicide during the time that we've been talking. Someone dies by suicide somewhere in the world, irrespective of age or gender, every 40 seconds. It's hundreds of thousands of people, and we don't talk about it.

Domestic abuse: one in three employees will be a victim of domestic abuse, and we think of domestic abuse as physical altercations, but it can be financial or coercive; it's not just for want of a better phrase, black eyes, and beatings. And when you look, when it boils down to it, if you think about the responsibility a corporation has and what a corporation can do in the well-being and mental health space, sure, you can give so many things on mental health and well-being, but for me, giving employees a safe space, who are victims of domestic abuse, has to be the pinnacle of well-being. That's gotta be the ultimate thing that you can offer.

And some companies do that well. Vodafone is the world leader in that. They have fantastic policies. And if you are at risk, they will get you into a safe space. They will get you legal help, et cetera. It's phenomenal service. We talk a lot about, sometimes quite flippantly, companies giving yoga and free fruit to try and move the needle on well-being. But if you want to do something, have a policy on domestic abuse. For me, it trumps absolutely everything.

Roberto

Thank you. Thank you, Martin. It was so good to have this conversation. I am also intrigued by some of the things you share with me. I will look more into it. And you are an example of what we're discussing, sharing, being open, normalizing things, and reducing all this stigma and the expectation that we must be like this mask. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you to those who also had this excellent question and contributed to the conversation. And I hope, as you said, that it's OK to talk about these things. At the same time, we will do more.

Martin

Yeah, thank you, Roberto. Thank you for creating the space for this conversation. I hope other people will follow your lead.

Roberto

Thank you. Thank you, Martin. Bye, everyone. Thanks.

Martin

Thanks, everyone, take care.

Where to find Martin, his work and projects

• LinkedIn

• Martin’s website - OTII