Key insights from the conversation

Introduction and the human side of sharing

• The importance of showing imperfections and sharing personal stories to connect with others.

• Writing on LinkedIn for creative expression and to dispel the myth that he had everything figured out.

• Embracing imperfection: the power of showing vulnerability and authenticity in personal and professional settings.

Role of Technology and AI

• AI primarily as a tool to free up time for more meaningful activities, making us more human and focused on relationships.

• Examples include using AI for data organization, creating presentations, and even generating personalized content like speeches.

Experimentation, community and play

• Hands-on learning: for practical, hands-on experimentation with AI tools to understand their potential and reduce fear.

• Corporate Culture: encourage companies to foster a culture of experimentation and provide the necessary tools and training for employees.

• The importance of connecting with others who have different expertise and learning from each other.

• Need for collaboration between tech-savvy individuals and business professionals to maximize AI's benefits.

AI ethics, and the future of work and education

• The environmental impact of AI, urging responsible usage and energy-efficient solutions.

• The importance of involving everyone in ethical discussions about AI and technology.

• Focus on critical thinking, creativity, and soft skills in education, moving away from rote learning.

• Encouraging people to use AI to enhance their work and personal lives, making them feel more fulfilled and connected.

Final thoughts and hopes

• More stories, less polarization: see more authentic stories and less polarization in the world.

• Bridging gaps: bridging the gap between technology and humanity to create more meaningful connections and innovations.

Full transcript

Here is the entire conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here's also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn Live.

Roberto

Hi Marco. It's great to see you. I'm very excited to do this live with you and so happy that we could make it.

Thank you, Marco, for being here and for finding the time. I know how busy you are, how many projects and things are simultaneously, and that you're here. Thank you.

And also, thank you to the people who are connected now because you are investing one hour of your time, which is our most precious thing. We cannot get it back, so we have to make it 100 % worth it. And by the way, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be here with you. Let me do a quick introduction so the people know how we met and the story behind it, and then I will leave it to you.

We've known each other for one year and actually from April, since one year and two months. Then, we connected to a program from LinkedIn for creators.

I kept following your work and vice versa, and the relationship was virtual and 100 % on messaging. And then I saw so many things, projects, and initiatives on your side.

What struck me from the beginning is the infinite curiosity that I see in you, the willingness to experiment, do things, and build stuff. And I admire all the things that you share, Marco, a lot.

It's fascinating to see the human side of everything you share, and you have a book called Imperfect Stories. Share every Friday, you share a story, which is brilliant because, at the same time, it's a personal story, but then you have a message for all the people, and then you also have this creative and this drive to do more things and to explore and to experiment with AI. So, this combination is fantastic.

I would love to hear your story. What made you get where you are? And, of course, we are talking about imperfect stories, so maybe we also have a story about it.

Marco

Thanks for having me. I've been following your work for quite a while, and interestingly, we came across this LinkedIn Creators Program. So I'm very grateful for that. I think my story is a story of that. It's a very imperfect story, and I think it's okay to show other people I am imperfect. In some way, we grew up with the expectation that we should always have the answer that we should all have figured out. And I guarantee you that 90 % of the people we think have figured out, they don't. So, I started writing on LinkedIn two years ago precisely because of that. The first reason was very selfish. I wanted to find a vehicle of creative expression that was not connected to any company I was working for. But the second thing was also that I would, and some people would come to me. Hey Marco, you seem to have everything figured out.

And the conversation from then on took a very different turn. And I think it's not only because of social media; it has always existed, but obviously, social media amplified it. We created this idea, this facade that if life is not perfect, if we are not stoic, if we're not with our game face on the whole time, we are unworthy or weak. And I think it's the other way around.

I think COVID brought a different perspective to all of us. I don't think anyone wants to live more in a straight corporate environment in which people keep a game face on. That's why I started to do it with Imperfect Stories and how I came about to create the book.

Roberto

Yeah, and I like how you say that you wanted to express something. It was like there was no end goal. It's that I hear that this is who I am, and what I want is that people see that. And you don't want to give this image of the perfect Marco, everything figured out, even if, for example, now you have a perfect video, the setting is fantastic, which right away is another thing that I also deeply respect, the detail.

But at the same time, you are here, and you're saying I don't have it figured out; this is not true. And when you say that, it also frees you. You feel, okay, I don't have a possibility of being right all the time.

Marco

I think a lot of it is. I like to use examples of other people because I don't intend this to be fluffy. I meant to be concrete. The story I'm going to republish this week was about my interaction with a very senior leader in the company when we started to talk about AI a year and a half ago when I was showing her something, or I told her, have you heard about chatGPT and she could have just said, yeah, of course, I heard about it. Of course. And she said, no, I haven't. Can you tell me more? And that was incredibly powerful because she learned, I learned, and I admired her. She learned something new, and she gained my respect even more. So it's about pointing out the examples of those things happening rather than just saying platitudes without concrete meaning.

And that has been my driver to write those stories. And by the way, because I always get these questions all the time. Did I have a concept for imperfect stories at the beginning? Absolutely not. Did I niche down or focus only on stories? A hundred percent not. I think it was a random comment that someone made in one of my posts that they used the word imperfect and it just came about.

So, nothing of it was wholly designed or anything, which shows how imperfect these things are.

Roberto

Yeah, and it's brilliant. At the same time, it looks like just following your curiosity and seeing what you love doing because, as I do, we both have a full-time job. We do this as something that we love doing and get immense satisfaction. For example, you mentioned the comment when you see that what you're sharing resonates with someone or someone says; this also happened to me.

And now that I know that I feel better or can even contribute, you may make me see something that I didn't see. So this is amazing. And then also, remember that you started two years ago. So this is another example of how two years is an eternity in this kind of thing. And it's nothing because it's two years.

But two years of doing every week or every four days, one story, and then you look back and see, wow, I did all of this. And one thing that I also love and also wonder about, and by the way, you are inspiring me to do something similar, to give it my twist, because it's fantastic how fixing on the moment, for example, this story that you mentioned now, the Tell Me More this is one of the ones that say, wow, this is a fantastic example of how I want to be this person.

This also helps you see what you don't like and shape what you want. And I also believe that what you can't see in others is because you also share this value. So you would not be able to see all this humanity if you didn't share those values.

Marco

I think it's also important to be kind to ourselves. Some people tell me, but why do I need to train and be aware of that? That's how we've been wired our whole lives. I mean, how many times has the teacher asked the question, and you raised your hand and said, I don't know. Do you feel comfortable with that? You don't.

So, I think there's a series of patterns that we believe will create a specific pattern of leadership that people resonate with. Still, I believe that relationship and leadership patterns sometimes detach people from corporations. And by the way, I always get this question: am I a rebel? No, I'm a corporate person and spend most of my life in corporate. I believe in either loving it, changing it, or leaving it.

So I think it's about finding these examples, and there's no such thing as corporate. Corporate is people. There's no such thing as culture. Culture is people and values at work. And I think the more of us who are conscious of that, the more we can make these places, where we spend a lot of time, more our places rather than a distant entity called corporate or the company.

Roberto

When you say that, I remember that when you can see all these amazing things in people in the company, it's no longer the company; no, it's the people inside the company that make the company.

And seeing all these things also makes it more evident. So when you see it, yeah, it's not only the building and so, but there are people and relationships. And one thing that I also love about what you say is that it's like questioning our assumptions. And even if you're working in a big corporation, I also work there. And if you look for human connection and humanity, there's plenty.

It's not true. Of course, you have to look for it, and the more you look for it, the more you find it.

Marco

A friend of mine has this brilliant expression: the assumption is the mother of all screw-ups. And I built on top of that that comparison is the mother of all miseries. And I think that's based on one of your illustrations, Roberto. But I believe that assumptions are not only assumptions we make of our people but the assumptions we make in our head.

One of the stories I have in imperfect stories is about Ralph, the inner critic that lives in my head, and the stories we tell ourselves, or did we let this inner critic tell us? It's this constant dialogue that is based on assumptions. I won't be as good as they think. If I do this, they will feel that I am going to bomb and do all of those things. So much of it is trying to bust the assumptions through dialogue, not hiding or assuming something because things will ultimately cut up with us.

Roberto

And also, when you say assumption, there is another side, not only on ourselves, but the label we put on the person, even before meeting them. And then, okay, this person is from finance, so there has to be this. This person is from legal; there has to be this. Or marketing, marketing, there are all these. There are so many biases and so many labels. And if we buy the label, we don't see the person.

Marco

I think some people can be compassionate towards any person or situation. I am not at that Zen level, but I think what happens in any relationship at work is first, even if you fundamentally disagree, and sometimes I fundamentally disagree; I try to empathize with why on earth that person could act that way. Because I think it helps engage in a more meaningful way. Now, can I agree? No, I'm not that Zen. If not, I'll probably be a Buddhist monk or something like that. But I do think it helps. That's the advice. I've tried to practice with myself.

Roberto

I am also 100 % sure of this. Now we are talking very relaxed, but then I think about, when I'm in a meeting, do I always have this smiling face? I try to, but there's one thing also: when you notice that you are thinking something, at least this is the first step. And you catch yourself saying, now she's here, she will do this and that. And then I say, what am I thinking? So what's happening?

And then maybe you still give in and fall into the trap, but if you notice, maybe after the meeting, what did I say? And then, gradually, you become more conscious of your reaction or response, and you can try changing it and arrive to this Zen level you mentioned someday.

Well, I'm very curious because, you see, now we are talking about work, about companies, and we have started a conversation about people and technology. What is the role of this technology, specifically AI, and the things that are exciting today?

Marco

I think what I am seeing with AI today is that the primary role of AI is to free up time from things that we don't need to spend so much time on. And that by freeing up the time, so I'll give you a very concrete example. I tried to have more speaking engagements this morning in the Middle East. So, I got a list and a link with events.

I created an Excel spreadsheet and manually started it; okay, what is the event? What is the date? What is the link for more information, the location, etc.? Then I thought, wow, I will be doing that for two or three hours. So I went to ChatGPT4o and said, here's a link with information, created a prompt. Could you make an Excel?

Figure out all of the conferences within these topics and create an Excel with these columns: one, two, three, four, five; by the way, add not only the second half of 2024 and 2025, and in five minutes, I had that information. Now imagine if I had spent those three hours doing that; how much more stressed would I be during the day if, for now, spending one hour with you talking?

So I think, first and foremost, AI is a tool that gives me a head start to focus on what drives me and is meaningful rather than something that is here to replace me. There's a future in which it might replace us or not. I don't know. That's totally out of my control. I don't have direct access to all of the big tech companies. But for me, that is the primary vehicle. Paradoxically, AI is here to allow us to become more human and more focused on human relationships. Will we take advantage of that or not? I don't know, but I think the opportunity is here.

Roberto

Yeah, absolutely. And this also reminds me of how easy it is to say, okay, you have to use this technology, but then some people have to use it. And what you mentioned about your approach, which is creative, and you see opportunity rather than a threat. But at the same time, if you think, how can you do this in an organization? How can you extend or deploy or make people think, "Okay, I'm doing this, but before doing it, could I use something to make it different? So, what's your take on this?

Marco

We need to get people in a room, literally. We need to get people not to read about it, not to watch about it, get them in a room, get laptops in front of them, and get them to use it. It's when we moved from the calculator to Excel. You could have read a thousand papers about Excel, but only when you banged your head against a pivot table and failed at it, in my case, 343 times, were you able to do it. And I think it's the same. You need to get people in a room, from the most junior to the most senior, because the data is contrary to what people think; this is not a generational gap.

For instance, we can't rely on the younger generations to teach us about social media.

Data from this Microsoft  Index Trend Report says that of the people bringing their AI to work, roughly 75%-80% of people across the four generations. So it's not a generation thing. And I think we have been focusing a lot on the tech and data. But if we don't get people to use the tools to think, what I could say is AI first.

Okay, how can I do this much faster without thinking that I'm cheating? If you're using Excel instead of a calculator, you don't think you're cheating; it's just a tool, right? Second, I am thinking about how I can make it work for me so that I can save time to do something more meaningful. And I think that only happens by getting people in the room.

And I always tell the leaders of the companies I work with that you may not believe me, but the biggest priority in your organization is to re-skill your entire organization.

Roberto

It's curious because when you mention putting the people in the room and tinkering with their computers and trying and breaking things, it doesn't work, and try again, it came to my mind one of the things you shared about the Lego workshop. What may be the connection with that?

Marco

We need to develop the idea that playing with something, that's what you do with Lego, is building and learning something. As you can see, I'm very addicted to Lego. But for me, what Lego does is allow me to create something with my hands and build something, having that kind of fulfillment. I think AI is the same. I think we can play with AI. Of course, there are a lot of people who are going to say, but I'm not saying we should put confidential information there. I'm not saying there's no ethics. Of course, there is, but you don't need to have to do an agenda for an offsite with non-confidential information or do the simple exercise I just mentioned to you, which is on public information, which you could say probably two to three hours of your day, two or three hours of your day, you can play with it.

And guess what? If you create a document, image, or video and it's not 100 % perfect, that's OK. I mean, remember the first YouTube video that was ever uploaded? It was a guy saying, we're here at the zoo. So, of course, it's not perfect. Technology is not perfect at its inception, but the more we play with it, the more we see the possibility and are less fearful about the potential outcomes. And, more importantly, actually ask the right questions. Technology isn't perfect, but it's only if we ask the right questions about it that we can make it work for us.

Roberto

I love what you say about playing and this spirit of experimentation. And, my personal story of how I jumped into the AI hype or not hype, maybe we're not, it's not yet hype as we could, but it was like, I always loved coding, and I know how to code SQL and Visual Basic, which are pretty old language. And then, somehow, I missed the Python train.

And it was something that was always in the back of my mind. I would love to learn Python, but I have all my commitments, including my family. It's not my number one priority. So I say, OK, I will live without knowing Python. And then what happened?

I signed up for the first GPT 3.5 and was super excited because it was a waiting list, and then I got in. So I said, okay, let's try translating this Visual Basic Micro into Python. And I said, please, can you do this?

And then magic happened. And I said, wow! This is so easy. And I remember that that day, I couldn't sleep. It was like, I was talking to my wife, and I said, Ana, this is so amazing. And she was like, please, I want to go to sleep. Tomorrow, we will have time to do that. It's weekend. Don't worry.

Marco

It's that, I think it's that wow, that wow that you've seen. That's why I insist on people getting laptops. Because it's not so much that, for instance, people say, yeah, you get a computer, and the person creates an image or a video or, in your case, some coding. But it's so much more than that. Suddenly, you know, and you are aware that whatever you do in your company, you can go from an idea to an execution much quicker.

Is it a piece of software? Is it a video? Is it an image? Is it a song? You can imagine it and do it. And I think that is an incredible time for everything related to creativity and building. That's why I identify this period of AI so much with LEGO.

Roberto

And now, one thing comes to me when you say it's so easy. I remember one person shared with me when we were talking about implementing generative AI in our companies, and he told me, yeah, it's straightforward to use. At the same time, it's not so easy to implement in a structured way. So it's like, okay, everyone can do it, but what's the next step? What would you say about the advice?

Marco

In companies, I always say that the first thing you need to do is enable your people. Enabling your people is one thing; you must get them the tools that work. You wouldn't bring your Excel to work. You wouldn't. So they need to arrive there and have the tools, obviously safely, in a way that contains the data. So, they need to arrive there and have the tools. Part of enabling is also training; it's getting them in a room and getting them to use these tools for things that matter to them daily. These are some of the examples I mentioned. The second thing is that you need to create this idea of experimentation. As you said, it's almost like what I see many companies saying is, yeah, you can use it, but if you use it, there are 20 things you can do that will get you fired. No one will ever do that.

That's why so many people are bringing their AI to work, which is not ideal because they're not doing it within the security of a corporate IT environment. The third thing is that we need to be way clearer in fostering that culture of experimentation and think about the future after the future.

I think companies can do a much better job at that. This is a concept that Allie Miller uses: okay, you're going to get 30 % productivity improvement. For example, what are you going to do with it? As you've seen in some people, the easy management answer is that when some leaders are okay, we will fire everyone and do way more with fewer people. But my question is, what if your competitor doesn't do that?

If they decide to go faster to market, be more customer-centric, and build better products, I think you need to answer the question: What will you do with it the moment you get that productivity gain?

Roberto

Absolutely. And when you say train the people and give them tools, I would also add to let them play and set aside time for playing. Because if you say, yeah, we're going to do this, let's play. But you have all these plates spinning; no plate can stop spinning. So yeah, it's the same example you said when you said, OK, ten things may fire me for that.

What's the incentive for playing? Yeah, maybe you will have some people playing because they absolutely love it. So they will, they want to set whatever. But yeah, I think we're talking about wide adoption. So, let us leave space. And maybe it's in the beginning; it's an investment that will not give this immediate return. Even if so many things exist, it's like magic, as we said. But if we don't give that space to play, maybe something won't always come out.

But maybe yes, and when it comes, if you invest all this time, then you will reap the rewards.

Marco

And you can use things that play directly from your job. So just out of, I mentioned one example, creating an Excel, preparing even for, you know, I want to buy a birthday present for my niece. They are this age. This is the last three things I gave. Do something like that. I want to go travel. Could you give me a travel? I want to do a report card celebrating a fake report card, celebrating my 15-year-old accomplishment at school. There are so many of those things that people can use in a productive way, in which the output of the play may not be super helpful, but maybe 50 % of it will be, and people will see the value, and it will create what you were saying, that kind of cycle. It's practical; I use it and then use it more, so it's more valuable.

Roberto

It also reminds me that when you do this with daily things, it's always top of your mind because sometimes it happens that you give a tool, and then we start the pilot and see,

Why didn't you use it? I didn't remember. I was so busy with my stuff. And it's not like they don't want it or they don't try, but it's our day-to-day. So, if you create the habit, little by little, you will see that this is getting resolved. So next time you have something, they say, let me play five minutes. Maybe in five minutes, I have something. This is working. It takes out 10 % of the work. Next time you remember, and then again, and again, and again.

I see four; let's check if you want, Marco. What does this look like if you check the live and the conversation and if we have some questions in the chat?

Marco

I can talk a bit about prompt engineering, which I understand is where André comes from. I think the prompt engineering is something that I feel is transitional. For instance, if you see where Anthropic launched last week, you write what you want, and they create the perfect prompt.

I think it's not so much about the prompt engineering itself. I think that had, as Andre pointed out, a particular role to play up until now. But as we're evolving, I think we humans need to develop, and a lot of tools that will be used with AI will be used with natural language. And I'm not talking only about coding. I'm talking about video, music, and image.

Even in Excel nowadays, you can say what you need.

I think the two critical things that I always advise people are that people ask me, so what should my kids learn nowadays? If they're about to enter the workforce, I think it is critical thinking and the ability to ask questions. That's where the creative part is in the end. I think the prompt will fix itself very soon. You will be able to. Now, you must go to a separate website like this one on Anthropic and devise the perfect prompt.

But soon, you will say, hey, here's what I want to develop. Here's a rough idea. Can you help me get there? And there is even a not-so-distant future in which you will have agents doing those kinds of connected tasks. But right now, the most important thing is developing critical thinking.

Roberto

And this is, for example, what you mentioned before when you said, I have this problem; I want to attend conferences, and I have this website. What should I ask my AI assistant to do? Ask the right questions and think about the problem. And there is a quote that a friend shared with me. It's connected with this from Einstein, who said that if I had an hour to solve a problem, I would spend 55 minutes thinking about it and five minutes finding a solution instead of jumping to action.

Marco

100%. I think Tim also mentioned something interesting: the AI ethics problem. That is feeling, making individuals feel part of it, and I agree. I published my newsletter today, the world's smallest AI newsletter. It's one minute.

Today, I talked about the impact of LLMs' energy usage. For instance, running a prompt on ChatGPT takes ten times the energy to run a Google search. Training a model, a large language model can take as much as 130 American homes, as much as 130 American homes consuming electricity in one year.

So, I don't add this to the chorus of things against AI, but it's more to realize that I'm also part of the problem. I also need to demand companies to find better energy solutions. Still, as we're moving into a future in which we have choices of large language models and smaller language models, I can also choose to use smaller, small language models for things that are not as important. Or, for instance, do I need to use ChatGPT to do a calculation? Whereas I can use Excel to do that. So I agree with this point. It's part of all of us and not something for someone else to solve because it's incredibly fast. It's the quickest innovation in the history of at least the last three revolutions, the Industrial Revolution, and it has been incredibly fast. So we can't delegate to governments or companies. We need to be part of the solution.

Roberto

Thank you. I see one more question here from Tim. Talking about AI means I can be more present in meetings. What do you think about AI meetings, transcripts, recordings, and all these things? It's an interesting question.

Marco

100 % is one of the very use cases that I always talk about. Have you been in a meeting where you have the stress of taking notes, thinking about your next meeting, and reading the notes from your previous meeting and the action items? Now, you can have the main summary, the main notes at the end of the meeting, and probably the action items; some already have suggested actions. That allows me to be, in that way, more present. Yeah. It was a friend of mine; I was talking with Claudio, and he had the brilliant. I'm going to butcher his quote, but he had a quote about how AI allows us to be incredibly more productive or lazy. Right? In this case, I think it's an opportunity. I can spend my time with you, Roberto, focusing on the conversation rather than the stress of the before and after meetings and all the emails I need to tend to in writing the notes and remembering the conversation with you. So I think it's an excellent example, Tim.

Roberto

Absolutely. And I would also add that when you talk about people and getting into a room, I think we still don't have the habit of recording the meeting. And when you're in a meeting, you say, OK, I'm just starting to record. Recording? But at the same time, I'm very confident that this, with time, will be more and more natural. It will be like in the background.

So you start. I experimented a few weeks ago and said, okay, we are in this program, et cetera. So, we are experimenting, and I ask your permission to record this session. And so I will start in 10, nine, with a little joke. And I allowed them to send me a message on the back if there was something personal: say no, please don't record this. It would be completely anonymous and fun; as you said, I felt much more liberated because I didn't have to write accurate meeting notes. And I also had more information. As I said, we can be much more productive and lazy. And I could see how much time I spoke, how much this person was, my ratio to listening to talk, and so many exciting things that I would not have access to. And then, even when there are mentions, infinite possibilities are open.

But again, the first thing to consider is the people because you cannot jump into a management committee. Okay, we're starting recording. Whatever, what is it? Could you explain it to me? Exactly, absolutely. Yeah. Let's see if we have some more questions. That is an excellent question, by the way. Thank you.

Marco

Of course. They need to get used to it and see the value.

Roberto

Let's see, refresh the questions from the audience one more time. The freshwater, the environment, and critical thinking. Yeah, the kids. And that's a great point, Andre. And there's this ability to think in essential ways. At the same time, I would love to add something to this.

And I'm pretty optimistic about this because I see my kids playing; they're still playing and don't have mobiles or access to technology. And they use all these things to explore and to experiment. So I believe it's a lot about the environment. If we show them and what we show them, if we are on the mobile all the time at dinner, what are we modeling? And if we use this tool for one thing,

They will learn this, and they will do it. So I think that our kids, on the contrary, our kids are teaching us a lot of things. And my daughter, for example, said, Daddy, why are you on the phone at the dinner table? We agreed on no mobile. I said, OK, Valentina, you're right. And so if we listen and accept the feedback, maybe our kids can teach us even more to be more present because they are born with this.

Marco

I think the most significant opportunity for AI is to remove us from screens. As we've seen recently, there was this experiment, I think it was in Norway, in which they took out the mobile phones from kids for six months, and there was more connection between them, and bullying was reduced.

So obviously, we are not there; people are bashing R1, Rabbit R1. Some of those devices are based on actions, but that's very early in technology. But I think if we go more to voice settings, which are more about what forces us to be on our mobiles, it is because we're connecting with people and have to do things. As we said, if I were with you, as Tim said, I would need to take notes and look at my screen. I couldn't be looking at you all the time. So I have that hope.

The other thing I think is more fundamental than that is we will need to rethink education completely. There's no way you and I were brought up, which is basically getting the right answers, that will change completely. It's about developing critical thinking, the ability to creativity, leadership, and what we now call all these interesting soft skills. Those things will be more important because much of the technical knowledge of something is democratized.

That links to a question from a friend of mine, Esteban: thank you, Esteban, about offshoring decisions with the acceleration of AI. Those questions will always come up about what you are trying to achieve with AI, right? I think we have the possibility with AI to create much better products and stories and go to market in a company setting in a way that is probably an incredible competitive advantage. Think about a small business that is launching now and how much of its barriers to entry are completely lowered. It's perhaps the best time in the world to be an entrepreneur. Very hard. I have massive respect for entrepreneurs, but their barriers to entry are completely lowered. Now, if companies will decide to do some offshoring,

They can do that because they want to save money in the short term. So, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm saying there's a midterm and long-term impact of those decisions, and I don't think the best use of technology is to be in that direction.

It's the same with kids. There are teachers now; they don't grade the answers anymore. Do you know what they grade? They grade the prompts. And I think that's going to start happening more and more and more.

And again, as Tim pointed out, it's our responsibility. We must show how I can use this technology to enhance my time with the people I teach or educate. My mom is a teacher. I remember her spending all weekends doing lesson plans and preparing the material because she wanted to have something fresh.

Now, teachers can make lesson plans in minutes and spend time being lively and engaging with the students. And I think that's the shift that we all need to do.

Roberto

Yeah, it seems like it frees more time to be human, to do the things we can. And the rest, okay, if something else can take care of it. And absolutely. And I love what you also say about democratization because it also, at least to me, gives so much space for experimenting and combining things. If you have to be the number one expert to do something, then you cannot do it.

We talked about coding Python and my experiment with Python. But maybe if we can go even further, there will be no code, and it will just build something.

And then again, I still see all the Legos on the back. It's like, I want to build this, and you have to know what you want to develop. You have to see what you want to ask. And then you also have to solve the problems that come in the way, because maybe the first time it doesn't work. You have to try again and again. No, try this and try this. And this is precisely, I think, the kind of play and experimentation that makes us go forward.

Marco

Yeah, I mean, I'll give you an example. I've never been able to do any Photoshop work or video editing work. I would, I don't know, try for two hours then become so angry at it. I would go fuming for a walk. Now, with things like CapCut and Midjourney, I can think of an idea and the perfect illustration or an idea I want to pass on, and I was never able to do that. So it gives you that possibility of creative expression plus saving time because you can argue, yes, you can still creatively express yourself and edit a video in 10 hours. Still, I prefer to spend your point about the 55 minutes, the 55 minutes thinking about the idea of the story, and then five minutes executing it rather than the other way around.

Roberto

Yeah, and now that you say this, that free time, I don't know if you feel the same, but I think that even if I free 30 minutes, then I discover so many things that could not only take this 30, but 300 minutes because I say, now I can do this and this and this and this.

So, there are infinite possibilities, and time is finite. How do you manage this, Marco? Because, especially in AI, new things are coming out every day. And what's the tip for that? Do you have any suggestions for that?

Marco

The advice I always give to people is to choose one. It's very easy to get overwhelmed. So, I get overwhelmed also when I read a lot of stuff because it's moving so fast. Just two weeks ago, the same week as the announcement of OpenAI Google and Microsoft, I was at a conference giving a keynote, and my keynote in 18 hours became outdated. We must choose one tool and try to max it out. That's why I always tell people you like music, tell, you know, go on Suno and try it. If you like the image, go on Midjourney. You love doing slides. I don't, but if you love doing slides, max out copilot on PowerPoint because it's going so fast that you won't be able to max out that tool.

And, of course, then you can pick and choose. One day, I want to do something different. That's okay. But don't worry about the breadth of tools.

The second thing is that these tools are broken into different providers. This is temporary. Facebook will launch Llama 3 across all their properties tomorrow, and 3.2 billion people worldwide can access it.

So, all of this consolidation is happening as we speak. That's why the vital piece is, again, the critical thinking and the familiarity with the tools. The tools themselves will all merge.

And the best outcome for all of us is that we won't even talk about AI in a couple of years. We will say, you don't say, I made these slides with PowerPoint. You will say, I made this. And AI was just a tool.

Roberto

It's great that you say this because, again, we talked at the beginning about being authentic now, so you are here you're an expert in AI, you are the cutting edge of everything, and you are here meeting our presentation are obsolete, and that's okay and again remind me of what at least I feel sometimes that I see all these people talking about this. They say I'm not on top of things; I want to be more, and then you think maybe they don't have it all figured out, perhaps it's just you see just this one percent.

But then there is the rest of 99%. I read another article that said everyone knows what ChatGPT is, but not everyone knows what Gemini, the Llama, the Anthropic, and all these things are because it's impossible to keep up with everything. So.

I will also add to normalize and don't stress out too much. And I have to know all of this. And one more thing to what you said about niching down and knowing the tool you love. This also gives the beauty of connecting with another person who loves that. So, for example, if you are a PowerPoint pro, I will call you Marco. Can you help me with this PowerPoint? And then you can teach me.

And this also is community. You said at the beginning of bringing the people in the same room that there would be an expert in PowerPoint, Python, etc. And then you know who knows what, and then you can also do it.

Marco

Yeah, focusing on the part of the community is the part we talk about burnout at work. And people think burnout is just because of working long hours. One of the sources of burnout is related to values, but the other one is people don't feel they're doing meaningful work. And, indeed, a lot of the work we are doing is not as meaningful because it's technical work that we don't necessarily need to do.

So if we free up that time to do meaningful work, whatever shape or form, I think there's that opportunity to create community and connection, allowing us to be more connected and fulfilled at work.

Roberto

Yes, absolutely. I will also add to this, letting people see what's their interests and letting them play. So maybe there is something that I love, but I don't know. So, until I don't try it, I do not know how to take a little step in one direction. See what's that? Okay, I like it. Another one, this is amazing, okay, maybe I will take note. And so it's a delicate balance, no? Between going all in on one thing and being open to see what other things are there without investing so much, but at least knowing what's going on.

Marco

And there's this story: I was with someone this weekend. It was a German gentleman who had to give a speech to his daughter, who was getting married to quite a big wedding. And he didn't speak fluent English in his 70s. And he knew that, and then he said, I use ChatGPT to prepare the speech, to rehearse the speech, to give me feedback on the speech.

And you know what people said? They said it was the best speech of the day. And do you think I told them I use AI? No, because it was just a tool. But he was so proud. And if you think about that meaningful moment of getting his daughter married, that was something that was entirely meaningful, especially in a foreign language, in front of 500 people. So make it work for you so that you can then express your enthusiasm to others, and then you create that virtuous circle.

Roberto

I love that. So it's like you find something that has meaning for you, and then it's again the tool, and the tool is in the background. It's not the focus on the tool. What do we want to do? What impact do you want to have? And then, with that, you pick the perfect tool. But then first think about the impact. I love it. We could go on for hours. I'm very conscious of the time.

To wrap up, I would love to ask you one more question: of course, we cannot predict the future and no one, never and not even now. But still, I would love to ask you one question: what would you like to see more in the world, and what would you like to see less?

Marco

I would like to see more stories in the world and real stories. I think that's what I want. I'm loving this trend now. There's this journalist from the BBC. She was covering the Trump trial. And I noticed that she was doing their live coverage using her phone. And I thought that was brilliant because you don't need to be so polished. I love that. We see more of these stories, and people are telling more of them without focusing so much on perfection. What I would like to see less is polarization. For different reasons, I see the world as very polarized. With technology, there's also the potential to have technology dissociated from, in this case, business and people. I also talk a lot about the concept of bridgeers: tech people.

Be more business, and bring the tech down to something tangible. We respect you tremendously. And business people are a bit interested in the tech. Because if we get them together, I think we'll see amazing outcomes. And that's my hope, that we will crack this polarity being created in the world. And I think technology is an excellent opportunity for us to do that.

Roberto

I 100 % agree, and I think that one of the proofs of that is what we are doing now. We are using all this technology, but we have a conversation in the end. We are human and have all our flaws, insecurities, etc. But we are going forward, and we are learning from each other.

Marco

Yes, 100%.

Roberto

And one more thing, Marco, if someone wants to reach out to you or whatever you think, it's the best way.

Marco

Yeah, add me on LinkedIn. I also have a website called marcoandre.ai. So, I'm trying to create a brand association. Just feel free to do that.

And if I can while I'm here, I love your work. I followed your work, Roberto, as you know, way before I met you. I think you are brilliant at telling stories through illustrations, and you always, every time you make a comment or do something. I appreciate you bringing that kind of simplicity and humanity to very simple things. I think there's an art of bringing complexity to simplicity. Making things complex is as easy as a paradox. So I appreciate you having me, and I'm looking forward to us to keep chatting.

Thank you to everyone who took their time. I respect that they took the time to listen to us.

Roberto

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. First of all, thank you, Marco. I 100 % agree with you, and thank you for your kind words. And also, thank you to the people who were connected for the great question they asked.

I had a lot of fun. It was super exciting. You're a super generous person. You're a human. At the same time, I see you're creative and open, and you are precisely this kind of bridge. We need more Marcos in the world, bridging humanity and technology. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Marco

Thank you.

Roberto

Bye bye.