Key insights from the conversation

Introduction and personal story

• Janis shares his philosophy on how to pursue one's passions for a living.

• Personal journey and learning from failures.

• The importance of enjoying work and finding a balance between passion and practicality.

• Side projects and how they can evolve into fulfilling careers without the pressure of immediate success.

Creativity and community

• Overcoming perfectionism by being open to experimentation and iteration in creative work.

• The role of the community in providing feedback, encouragement, and a platform for sharing and growing together.

• Leveraging one's unique combination of skills and interests to create distinctive and meaningful work.

• Maintaining authenticity and originality in an era of abundant content and evolving social media platforms is challenging.

• AI and technology as tools for creativity, and the importance of human authenticity and connection.

Future projects and aspirations

• Writing a book and the challenges and opportunities it presents.

• Reflections on the continuous learning journey and the importance of adding new skills to one's repertoire.

Advice for content creators

• Starting with action rather than over-planning or waiting for the perfect moment.

• The value of community, feedback, and iteration.

• Embrace curiosity, creativity, and the joy of making, acknowledging the supportive and inspiring online community.

Full transcript

Here is the entire conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here's also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn Live.

Roberto

Hey, Janis, how are you?

Janis 

Good to see you.

Roberto 

I'm very excited to do this. This is one of the highest moments of the day. So thank you, Janis, first of all, for being here.

Janis 

My pleasure, Roberto. 

Roberto 

So first of all, I would like for the people who don't know you, Janis, one minute for an introduction. You are among the most inspiring people I know online and in real life because I enjoyed getting to know you. What struck me also when I was setting up this event is that I saw your intro, and it said, and I will read it literally: "I procrastinate, I doubt myself and struggle with perfectionism, yet I do what I love for a living, and I believe you can do." So this is it.

Janis

Yeah, I was happy when I came up with that line. I was like, oh yeah, this is good. But honestly, it represents me a lot because if you look at my day-to-day life or observe my history during the last 10 or 20 years, I'm lazy. I always try to figure out the easy way, and I'm like, this is hard or boring. I don't want to do this. And I was decent at it when riding downhill mountain bikes back in the day for around ten years. 

I learned from that experience back then that you can be good without working hard. It wasn't like I was working hard, but I can't recall a single day from those downhill mountain biking days that felt like a struggle or something like that. Everything was enjoyable. I was always just jumping, going in trains, and riding to mountains with friends, and it was just such a thrill. What I took from that experience into my regular career was that work shouldn't be hard; work shouldn't always be like this struggle. 

Of course, you know, even if you marry the most amazing person you know, probably 10% of the time, you will be like, you know, angry with it or whatever, and then there will be some hiccups in the relationship or whatever. It's the same with the careers that you love.

But yeah, I like to go only briefly into details, like for ten years. I just worked in the regular corporate world. A few triggers triggered me, and I did not believe it, but I understood that online business is a thing like some seven eight nine years ago. Which sparked this desire? Oh my god, this could be the path where I can like to do fun and exciting things and make a living.

I did all the wrong things for four or five years and failed at many things, but I had a blast. I started YouTube channels, blogs, and this and that. I even tried to do a SaaS product with one developer, but nothing worked. I built no audience, had no revenue, nothing. Three years ago, I discovered this visual content creation through various prompts.

Which just came easy to me. Most of the work, you know, was brainstorming and walking around, and then I sat at my laptop, creating simple art. I like to consume that type of content. I started to develop that type of content, and it has led me, you know, to where we are today. So yeah, I've been living my dream life for the past three years. It's super awesome. I draw these pictures for a living. It's great.

Roberto

What did you learn from this, from starting something?

Janis

When I ran all those failed experiments in the early days, I consumed a lot of self-help, listened to many Tim Ferriss podcasts, listened to entrepreneurial stories, etc. And I realized, early on, before I built pretty much anything, that many people achieve great things but are entirely unfulfilled and hate their nine-to-five. 

And I did not want to build another prison for myself, which is not a nine-to-five, which is your own business. So I quite intentionally did, like, OK, I have this comfortable life with nine to five. I can wake up before work, work in the evening, and carve out a few hours daily to pursue this creative work. Even if it takes longer, let me pursue something I genuinely love and enjoy instead of just pursuing the new hot thing that may happen. So, this love for the work and working with this, trying to work constantly with my intrinsic motivation, was something I aspire to do. So there's a bit of what I learned, which I don't regret. 

And there are different paths. There isn't anything wrong with pursuing, you know, the next hot thing, and maybe it will go big, but whatever. It could make you some money, create freedom, and then you can pursue whatever you like. Also, there are various ways, but this was at least my path.

Roberto

This is super interesting. Also, there is no way for everyone to be the same. And I hear you didn't want your side, experiments, to become another prison. So also, by doing this separately and giving your time, you ensure that you do not put pressure on that and that it doesn't have to work. 

Imagine leaving your job, which has to work, because if it doesn't work, you must find something else. So this kind of pressure resonates a lot with what you said. I would never think about just doing these things that we do, at least not in the short term. 

Also, combining working and doing communication, visuals, and other things has some cross benefits. What I see, for example, in my day-to-day life is a source of inspiration for things that I share. And vice versa. I see something beautiful, and then I say, why don't we try this? Why don't we use this? So there is also some combination of the inside and the outside. And combining all the things you love would be an idea.

And then, it makes what we do unique because no one has the exact combination you or I have. And so it also frees us from the idea that we have to be original. We are already initially doing what we do because we have yet to have our perspective. And now that I said that, it reminds me of one thing. You always encourage everyone on your course to try things, take it easy, experiment, and iterate. And in this sense, you are very generous and very supportive. How do you see this community part in creation?

Janis

I struggle with perfectionism quite a bit, perhaps a bit less, because I have found my way. I understand, and I try to live my advice, especially when it comes to posting on social media; you know, you can publish, if it flops, it flops; if it works, it works, you know, and three months later, iterate on your image, on your idea, you know, everybody has forgotten about it, post it again. Of course, if you're working on a book or something more significant, it will live after it's done. Of course, you know, let your perfectionism take over a bit more, but still, you have some deadlines and stuff, do your best until the X amount of time and give you more and more time to, you know, to get some feedback from people, et cetera, et cetera. 

People put too much perfectionism, like letting perfectionism shine too much on this general social media posting type. So yeah, from there, I have empathy because I went through that, I struggled through that.

And I know what didn't work and what works. So there's always a need to find this balance. That's why we have this community, and that's why people can share there, get feedback and encouragement, and juggle along. 

But yeah, you're an excellent story. I like how you joined the course because you did not intend to make these drawings, but it just came to be that you supported my work through NFTs back in the day, and then I gave you access, which was funny. It was funny. You're an excellent example of why I encourage everybody to pursue this curiosity and creativity aspect, plus leveraging the internet because essentially, you still have a full-time job that you like, you run a family, and you have many things going on. However, throughout what it's been like two and a half years or so, you've built a massive audience, you know, on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter.

And it strengthens your CV even if you want to pursue a nine-to-five career for the rest of your life. This is so similar; you can't compare it to somebody who will send a regular CV. If somebody looks at you, this guy is a big deal in leadership and stuff like that. And how did you get there? You just got there by being curious, which you are; you read books and blogs, and you have the most badass system I've ever seen, and you create these visuals, you know, and you inspire your kids to draw and stuff. You have just built this audience, this massive leverage, just by doing fun things for you. Like, has it been a struggle or challenging or not enjoyable? I believe it's the opposite, right?

Roberto

Absolutely. And this is a fun part: the beauty of doing these things is that I see the connections, and you mentioned the system. And one more thing is that everyone has their own system. There is no perfect system. And I think the system has to be something you enjoy doing if it feels like, oh, no, I have to put all this stuff in this notion file. This is a nightmare. So I also have fun putting all the things, all the ideas. And this is something that I saw. You mentioned two years. It's a little bit more. And in two years, how many things you can accumulate? How many ideas? And then it's beautiful because some of this idea comes from these connections. After all, you have read it many times.

So, it's also a way to strengthen my memory and connect to things. When someone mentioned something, I did this illustration and then recombined it. And it looks like it's somehow exponential because you have ten illustrations in the beginning, then you have 100. You have 700, and you can combine everything with everything because you can take one from this one from there. These are also part of the encouragement you said about just doing things because perhaps the first things are not so good, but maybe some of the things you do in the beginning, you will retake it as you said and iterate and do something better. Then this is when the joy comes out because you see that all the work that I put in, all the fun that I had, you see some result not in terms of I have to count and have this and this and this matter, but when you know that you take all that you did. It's somehow stayed in your memory, and you say, wow, I'm making some new connection.

Not only in terms of people, which is also one of the fantastic things. You get to know people who like you, share interests, share journeys, and we are all unique. We have one commonality, for example, between visual illustration and personal development. Then we have our own: you are a bike rider, I do, I love tech. And everyone has their own things.

Janis

It is the beauty. I think it's very encouraging for people, I believe, to hear as well if somebody wants to pursue whatever type of, you know, try to listen to their curiosity and creativity a bit more. I think it's very encouraging to hear that my notes, for example, are an absolute mess. Your notes are incredibly structured, and there are so many different ways in terms of process and format as well; you might not like visuals, you might like tweets, maybe you like comedy, and you want to create, educate people, or take a note, you know, through funny TikTok videos, you know, whatever it might be, there are so many different topics, there are so many different formats, and there are so many other processes and ways how you get there. So yeah, I'm sure most people can find their weird way to make this work.

Roberto

Exactly. And this also reminds me of the idea I sometimes see: everything has already been invented. Everything has already been said. Yes and no. Of course, some ideas, like many stoic ideas, come into our social media. And I also love them. At the same time, the context is not the same. We are not the same. It's been filtered through many years, and you have your interpretation. So even if it looks like you're saying the same, this is already being said; maybe yes, but perhaps it's your unique perspective that you use one idea plus your way to see that plus your experience, and then you express it in a way that is unique to you.

Janis

Yeah. It reminds me of like, you know, I've heard whatever, let's say, random, whatever random advice, you know, from 10 different people. And one of those people, let's say, could be my wife, you know, and then I listened to some podcasts, and I'm like, Oh, this is good. This is good. And then I shared it with my wife, and she's like, I said that to you!

And that's the idea that you need to hear these from the right people, and then the message will land for you. I think there was a reasonable quote. I don't know who said it, but there was, like, everything has been said, but as nobody listened, everything needs to be repeated. I don't know the quote, but somebody said it. It's a good line.

And it's about the journeys as well. I could learn a few things from Elon Musk, but he's so far ahead that it's hard to attach. So it's always nice to learn from people who are a few steps forward, you know, and it's just that there is more understanding because a person who might be ten years ahead of you they are so detached from how it felt ten years ago that it just doesn't click. So I think sometimes it's nice that even if you feel like I'm such an insignificant thing here online, you can see how this compounds: somebody inspired me, I inspired somebody else to somebody else, inspired somebody else. And just, it's like a never-ending growing tree, which is fantastic.

Roberto

This also reminds me of looking for people who inspire us, that we can always find someone to learn from or have ideas. Then, we take the combination of all of these ideas and give our unique view. And when you say that, you talk about somehow projecting into the future; I'm curious now to hear what you are more excited about for the next few months.

Janis

The big project is the book I'm currently working on. That's a big deal. It's exciting and overwhelming at the same time. Yeah, it was fascinating because I always aspired to write and create books at some point, and I wanted to make them in a bit different format. I think not exactly like this, but a good example is Steal Like an Artist by Austin Kleon.

It's a good, easy read because I'm a super lazy reader. And when I look at something else, which is super dense text, I get overwhelmed. But if I say, OK, there's like not much, you know, I can read it, it feels digestible to me. So I always felt that visuals can help to bring this physical book format into the hands of more people, especially now with kids and young people with all the social media. I think we are going away from books and more into videos. So, I guess it's an exciting way to create these.

I signed a contract with Harriman House from the UK, a big publisher, which was pretty awesome. I worked with them like when I was working on the learning game for Anna; she created the book "What's wrong with the education system" and stuff. And I enjoyed working with them. So yeah, deadlines are coming. I need to finish the cover and title by the end of February. The manuscript needs to be done by mid-March. So there's a lot of writing going on. I was going to meet people in Barcelona for a few days, and I thought I would fly there, but I decided to book a train, which is like five hours, five and a half hours in one direction, so I'm just forced to sit and write. So, those will be my focused hours because I struggle with writing a lot.

And it doesn't come easy for me because I don't read books. I always like listening to books, and yeah, I never read; I never really write. So it is tough for me. But I use this, this opportunity to sign a book deal kind of, so it's almost like a forcing function to get my shit together and learn this thing because I do want to learn it; this is a bit of a, like a more arduous journey, but I do start to enjoy it the more I write. Even if I hated it, I began to love it. It's actually pretty fun.

But yeah, it's an exciting project. So I hope it will go well. It will be just in bookstores in April next year. So it's still a while.

Roberto

It looks like you took something that you already have, one of your skills, which is all visual illustration, and from there, without leaving that behind, you're adding one more thing: writing. So you keep adding and adding to your skills.

Janis

Writing, I think, is such a fundamental skill. I believe it's more important than visuals. It's a good reminder that if you even suck at writing and feel like you struggle with it, there are other paths to kind of share ideas, you know because I shared it with visuals, you shared it with visuals, we have big audiences, and I managed to sign the book deal without writing a single blog post that they were able to view. You know, so, interestingly, you need to get your foot in the door. If you can prove that you can get people to pay attention to your work, good opportunities can come your way.

Roberto

Oh, and now that you mention attention and the audiences, I would be curious to hear what you think are the current opportunities on one side and challenges in this platform, of course, which is LinkedIn, but in general, on social media and communication, how do you see it?

Janis

I don't know, you know, one thing I come back to all the time is: find what interests you, see what you love, and keep shipping. Because the algorithms change all the time. There has been a super-exponential period for me on Instagram, then everything plummeted, and everything was super slow. Same for Twitter, now X, you know, there were spikes, there were lows, then again, where there were spikes, like same for LinkedIn. It's never linear. So, figure out what you want to share.

Of course, try to get some feedback over time, you know, OK, I feel this really whatever, you know, flopped or people are not interested because of this or that, try to improve it next time. But I'm not an algorithm person. I don't know what works, how it works. I try to create in a way that I like to see.

There was a period when you and PJ Milani shared a lot of carousels on LinkedIn, and I felt like they went viral. So I was like, OK, you know, let me give this a try as well. So, I accumulated ten visuals to do whatever, you know, and share those. Of course, you look at some signals, what could work and what couldn't work.

And I think another thing, which is the big topic, AI, is, in my opinion, just a friendly reminder to be authentic. And that's something I want to embrace a bit more. I want to share my face and some of my ideas in writing and maybe in video. So that people can feel that it's OK; there is a real person behind these visuals. It's not just some random AI engine that is pumping these out because I'm sure in a few years, it could be the case that, like the plain average type of visuals, AI will be able to create the same as now people do with some model type of, like these video where we're like these supermodels, which are AI, and grow these. So I think that's it. That's nice.

But it definitely shouldn't be discouraging. It should be more encouraging because people will look for decent stuff. And I don't know. I've extensively used AI in my research to get gears going or different perspectives. But in general, it's incredibly average, you know, it's just the average of all the shit and all the fantastic stuff, and you get something average. And I think that's what I like about all these chat GPTs. They are beneficial in some particular ways. But when it comes to creativity, it's just not there. Still, the best ideas come from either myself or somebody to whom I have asked for feedback, and they gave some interesting perspectives. So yeah, the ideas are average, and it's easy to create fluff. So be on point, be authentic, and do what you love. Be curious about what you love and create in a way that you find exciting and intrinsically motivating. And see where it goes.

Roberto

Absolutely. It also reminds me of something that you always said, and this is why, by the way, one of my principles also for sharing, which is sharing things that you would love to see first and then being respectful of the time of the people. And I think that, for example, sometimes we discussed it, and we thought, I'm a super fan of automation and AI; I try to automate everything. But, with a but, I attempt to automate everything on the inside. And I would never automate a conversation. So this will be, first of all, disrespectful. Second, it's not authentic. And third, what's the point of sharing these things if you are not there to interact, to have a conversation, and to learn? This probably is one of the biggest challenges because I tend to see more and more stuff that looks like AI generates it.

Janis

We'll see, but I do have a feeling that at least, I feel in the generation, you know, there is like, let's say my generation, I think that we skip ads. We see ads, but we automatically ignore them. We don't notice them. We know it's like an ad, though; my mom maybe could be, oh my God, there's this exciting thing. I should check it out. And I'm like, Nah, that's an ad; that's bullshit. Just skip it; go on. And I believe people will get to get used to the AI bullshit, fluffy type of responses. And they're like, oh, I didn't even see that this is full of crap AI bullshit, and they will ignore it. So I don't know, being a decent human online will be much better. And I liked what you said: automation on the inside, but not the outside; AI is like a fantastic assistant; I feed it Excel. Hey, what's the number of followers? It gives you everything in a nice sentence and is super good.

And about creating what I would like to see. Yeah, I think it's a decent principle if you want to focus on creating a tribe and attract people that you find like similar with, like kind of that you vibe with, because I'm sure there are plenty of people who are kind of similar to me in similar interests, et cetera. And just if you always try to tailor your content for your audience, you know, you can lose yourself; I probably have heard in some interviews quite a lot that, especially like it's for YouTubers, they are so obsessed about the algorithm and the likes and everything that they tailor everything to get those numbers up. And I do believe there is something to say about that. You can lose yourself.

Roberto

And now, actually, now that you say that, Janis, maybe I'll share one anecdote, which is, by the way, exciting learning. You mentioned the carousels. And I did; perhaps you saw it a few months ago; at the beginning of the year, I did some experiments with a format that was not my usual. And I did one. I posted, and it worked well in terms of reach and visibility. But then I thought, it doesn't feel like stuff I want to do. Then I asked one person named Tim, who, by the way, I said is my accountability partner sometimes. And I said I'm not sure about this. How does it look to you? And he says very honestly, I don't like the vibe. It's not you. It doesn't feel anymore like the rest of the stuff.

And I thought about it and said, oh Tim, you're right. I will stop doing this, even if it worked. I will stop doing this because I don't feel it's what I want to see. Then, I changed and only did the carousel format for monothematics, for example, 10-visual communication and 10-visual conflict. I like this stuff because I try to tell a story through the visuals. It's like going from one idea to the other. And this is one of the examples of this adaptation. And see how it feels when you share because it must be OK with you, not what the algorithm says.

Janis

Of course, there is a balance, and it is essential to listen to your balance. When you go down that path where you start to feel you're creating inauthenticity and something you do for the likes, it's not the best place to be.

Roberto

Exactly.

Let's check the chat if we have some questions.

Let me add one thing to Sachin's question, which is a great one, from content consumption to filtering ideas. And this is something you already mentioned, that you consume things differently. I remember one of them in your newsletter; you had this brilliant visual with a line about consuming mindlessly and then consuming intentionally. This is a clever idea because I also believe you want to get some ideas when you put your mind to something. For example, you see brown cars everywhere when looking for brown cars. And there is another metaphor I love: when we both have kids and when we were expecting our kids, we probably saw pregnant women everywhere. And like, what's happened? Now, everyone else is waiting for a kid?

No. It's you that you're more in tune with these things. So, I would say that you first have to consume things you like and align with your values and objectives. At the same time, the way you consume, if you start to take notes and write or put ideas, things become more and more natural. And then all of a sudden, maybe you have your notes, and then for one moment to the other, you're thinking of something, and then an idea pops up, and then you connect this with what you read. So intentional consumption is probably one of the biggest things I also learned from you because one of the course chapters was that you take notes everywhere with your phone. You always go with something because inspiration or the idea comes, and then it disappears.

Janis

Through the process of content consumption, filter ideas for visual creation. Well, yeah, the first step is to be just ultra-aware and take notes constantly. You know, I think one misconception that a lot of people do, let's say they listen to a podcast and let's say, you know, Tim Ferriss says about, you know, there is this thing, 80-20 principle. Oh, OK, 80-20 principle and like 80-20 principle, blah, blah. And you write down the definition of that principle.

But I think what a lot of people miss is they miss out on capturing just thoughts and stories from their past, maybe listening to the same podcast. And it reminds you about whatever, you know, how your kid did that and how you were super frustrated because perhaps you were not able to produce work that day and how dumb it is or whatever, you know, wrote those things down because, like, I don't know if you follow my work. If you have followed my work from the early days, you saw that I started a lot with creative struggles, and I mostly shared them. There was zero advice in them. There was like, this is how we procrastinate. Everybody's like, ah, I'm the same, I'm the same, lol, everything's super funny. And they're just like a big club of procrastinators and doubters. And also, so all of those thoughts and that type of stuff, I think it's super important to capture. If you do like visuals, it's essential to capture them.

One thing I recently discovered from writing the book is to have planned chapters, etc. So, there's a lot of intention in what I want to create. There's some structure. And I was like, I was posting about it on LinkedIn as well, where I went on a walk. And I shared some ideas that came to mind when I looked at those chapters. But one exciting twist I did this time: I was on the side; I started listening to the Tim Ferriss with Noah Kagan podcast because Noah Kagan released this new book, which is the million-dollar weekend. They talked a lot about business in that conversation and started a similar vibe to my book. And I just listened to that conversation while I was walking, and in five minutes, they discussed something, and it reminded me about whatever this thing. I added to my notes, and it was like I had these prompts from my chapters, and then I had this inspiration from the podcast, you know, plus I'm, you know, walking and thinking, and some ideas came up. So, yeah, but you need to look for ideas. It's just a switch you put in; if you start taking these notes, you will get used to it. And now I have, I think, three or four thousand notes in my Bear Notes app, which I use.

It is a beautiful process, and I usually can create many visual ideas. I sit on my couch, take my iPad with the Apple Pencil, and scroll through those notes, and I just, OK, I read the text, whatever this random note I have taken, I click on it, I sketch on it. I do have a concept that I share in the course as well where you go through a brainstorming session, and there are various prompts because you can capture a note, let's say of, you know, perfectionism is problematic, is whatever struggling or overwhelming or something. And then you can start to add what they can add more there, what thought elements I could put there, how it feels, what do I do when that happens, and all those things can compound. And when you generate these different elements, you can end up in a beautiful place.

Roberto

I like it. It's like building your backlog and just dumping everything. And then you take it back. And when something stands out, you iterate and build on that. And this is also something that resonates a lot with me because, for example, I always try to have tons and tons more to do than I want to do. And this is the difference. When you have, imagine 10 or 100 ideas you would love to visualize; then you pick the one you have most fun doing. They say, oh, I want to do this; I like to do that. And it's not like I have to do it. No, you set your backlog and see this is the best idea now. And this cannot be the best in one month. Maybe you will retake your backlog in one month and say, "Oh, today I love this."

Another thing that connects with what you said, and I would recommend, is rereading and re-listening to the things you like. Because the first time you read or listen to a book, something pops out. Then, you have changed the second time because you are not the same person anymore. Perhaps you put something into practice, perhaps not. You have a different experience; when you listen to it again, something different takes.

For example, now I have started a book called, and maybe you also read it, The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read. And this is the fourth time that I read it. And this morning, I just started when I was doing my gym. Half an hour, I had a note and paper on the side and wrote down seven ideas for visuals. And I, wow, where did it come from? And I look forward to the next plane trip to do this.

Janis

Alexander is asking a question: Janis, how do you monetize? Half a year into my journey, a few people started to ask how I do this, how I do this, how I do this. So, I created a course that has been my primary revenue driver for the past two and a half years. I do freelance now and then, not too often. So that's another alternative. And then on that, there are some newsletter sponsors sometimes a bit, and then some workshops I do here and there, but not much of that currently. That's the current stage.

When you freelance, you don't have this freedom as we do, where we can create everything we want. There you have this constraint, hey, I must come up with something here, I have this particular thing. And I would say that it's more challenging; it takes more time, you know, you sometimes walk for hours in your apartment or outside and try to figure stuff out. But often, this forcing function to push yourself further causes you to come up with clever and exciting ideas. Sometimes, it's nice to go deep if it's important to you, if it's important to you, or if you are doing freelance, you can develop many exciting concepts. It's not always the first thing that comes up.

Roberto

I love it. It also connects to me with choosing the project you are passionate about because you have to want to go deep into something meaningful. For example, I remember the book you did about parenting; all the illustrations were fantastic. And I'm sure you had a lot of fun doing all of them. Maybe I remember you saying you struggled with some. At the same time, it looks so fun how you always talk about this. But the book you did, and I saw it probably was this summer, you have the physical copy, and you were like, wow, this is a book. I'm so excited about that. And these are the kind of projects that also, let's say, it's an obligation because you have to do it. You have to do all the chapters. At the same time, it's 100% aligned with what you want to go deep into.

Janis

You know, you say yes beforehand. But, with Anna, it was a bit different. There wasn't this constraint of illustrating every chapter. We had the perfect deal. And the deal was like, let me go through the book and illustrate wherever I feel I can add something that would amplify the message or bring a fresh perspective. We didn't have this. It was the perfect project. I enjoyed it.

Roberto

Wow. It sounds like a partnership. I'm doing this, I'm doing all my best, and I come out with 10, 20, or 30, whatever I will do because it's fun and meaningful.

Janis

I think that if somebody is doing freelance, it's always nice to do these little trial runs: let's do two, three visuals and see; no hard feelings, no nothing, you know, let's see if we vibe and we can work together and like our aspirations are on a like a similar level that we both look forward to seeing a similar type of like visual because sometimes it's just not meant to be and it's OK.

Roberto

This sounds like great advice, not only for doing visuals but for any project. Before committing to try to see how it's working with another person, it's like dating. You don't go to the wedding on the first date. You say, OK, we can work together. We like it. We enjoy it. Let's try. Let's go one more step, and again, and again. And it's more like a long-term relationship. I love it.

I see one more question from Bogdan: If you were to start over, would you build something like a dictionary of metaphors or only work on expressing one idea at a time?

Janis

I would not recommend building before you create anything, to build a dictionary of assets or something like that because that's just procrastination. Of course, it's helpful to have assets all over the place. And that can be part of your taking notes. You just, oh, this could be interesting. This could be that. Those are all my notes, and they are all fine. But you, I would usually say, the idea is the king, and you can have an excellent metaphor, but you're maybe not sure what to put it in there. I would gather as many ideas as possible and commit to creating daily. I don't know your situation, but maybe every third day or something, create at least something. And the more you build, the more creativity will flow.

And as Roberto is saying, and of course, we have now, we have created hundreds of visuals. This massive library allows us to look and be inspired and mix and match different things. You need to know that this will happen more the more you create.

And I think what you can do, if you start, I like this quote from David Perell, which is "imitate, then innovate," and if you're starting, I know how you can look at these visuals and feel like, oh my god, how do you even come up with this stuff, I'm sure some people can feel that. And I think that is fine, you know, pick something, Roberto's visuals, choose one of my visuals and try to Iterate on it, a bit like taking the template and the idea, but put maybe a different idea there, adjust some colors, create a distinct frame. Do it super sketchy style, do it with a pen and paper and take a picture, whatever brings this new vibe to it, and that's an excellent way to start, and the more you create, the more you will just come up with your ideas. And if you feel like sleazy or slimy about like posting them because it feels similar, keep it to yourself.

Sam Parr, big on copywriting, built a massive newsletter and is a master at copywriting. I think one idea that he often shares about how to improve in copywriting and what he does still to this day is when he needs to write a fantastic sales copy or something like that, he will take a famous or super popular sales letter or whatever, and he will rewrite that letter with hand. Just copy-paste, but it gets his gears going, and then he's in a better state of mind to create his page. So, I think you can apply the same idea to the visuals by trying to redraw some of people's work and then attempt to innovate.

Roberto

I will double down on the inspiration thing. I get inspired every day by what you do and what Hannah does, and I have a message there from PJ, Nicola, Michael, and many other amazing people. And this is also the beauty of that. You iterate, take something someone else said, and give it your idea.

And, of course, it looks similar sometimes, but it's your interpretation. And if you feel OK with that because you added your part, that's perfect. I would also add to reach out to the person to say, hey, I got inspired by this. And I love it when this happens; sometimes I do it, and sometimes someone does it. This is a pleasure because it means what you did has some meaning and impact, and you inspire someone to take action, which is a privilege first. Then, what also happens is that it inspires me again. So, the inspiration inspires me, and it's a cycle. With this, we also have a relationship with the person. So, I would say that "imitate then innovate" is brilliant. And the more, the better if you feel this is authentic.

Janis

Some heavily copy stuff and don't credit, or the most awful thing where people screenshot your thing; that's super shady, but it will happen. It's part of playing the online game. It's just, it's just what it is, but it's a waste of time. If you try to do it like that, that's a waste of time.

Bogdan asks another question. What tips do you have for those just starting to experiment with expressing ideas visually? I added a comment that I'll drop some threads. I'll have it if you go to my X profile, and there is a highlight section with a couple of old threads where I shared a bit of my process, which you can check out.

Another thing I would say, for example, is to use Figma, a free version of Figma. On YouTube, if you go and watch a Figma basic tutorial, like in 50, 20 minutes, or whatever, you know, spend maybe an hour just watching some tutorials and try to recreate some visuals, you know, try to recreate them, and add your twist, keep it simple, don't add like corky lines or whatever, keep it like super sharp squares, create some funnels through like bar charts or whatever, there's a lot of simple visuals, we and Roberto and other visual artists share here and try to do that and you will come up with something rather quickly. You can develop several visuals in a day, even if you're at zero skill level. Go to YouTube, watch some tutorials, and just get started. Be inspired, and see where it leads.

Roberto

And also to the course, which I would recommend, not only for the quality of what you say, which is true but also for the community, which is one of the parts we touch on in the conversation. When you interact with people doing the same, as you said in the beginning, remember someone who's a little further than you, and then you move together and iterate, and you see how they're doing. And then it's a way to progress more quickly than on your own.

Janis

Thank you for the plug. I would say the community is pretty calm right now. It's not as active as before we started, but I have some ideas on how to spice it up. So probably that will take place. But I think one of the most important things you get from the community is I can submit visuals; whatever you create, submit it for feedback. And I'll do a loom session where I give you tailored feedback. Many students have reported that it is a valuable feature, so I created it there.

If you can and want, feel free, welcome to join. It's a great place. But definitely, I know some people can't afford it. Don't put you in this state of mind, oh, I need this, whatever, you know, to create. You don't. I'll share some helpful threads. As I said, go to YouTube, watch Figma, be resourceful. This stuff is not that hard. You can figure it out. You can figure this stuff out on your own as well.

Roberto

Let's see if we have some more questions. We could go on for hours, as you can imagine.

Janis

That was a great conversation. A lot of people tune in from all over the world. Awesome.

Roberto

Thank you for listening and for investing this part of your day. I hope it was valuable and fun. It was super fun to talk again to you, Janis, and have the conversation.

Janis

I did enjoy it as well. Thank you to everybody who tuned in. If you have any questions, you can contact me, and I'm sure Roberto will answer. You can hit me up, him up, and we are trying to be good internet citizens.

Roberto

Absolutely. Yeah, what is that? A decent human being. I love that.

Janis

Yeah, yeah, because it is the case, like sometimes people are super decent when you meet them in real life, and everybody goes online and becomes an asshole. What's wrong with that? It's just it's people.

Roberto

Well, yeah, I have yet to end with the humor. I have the same with the car. I don't know what happens to people, to some people. When you jump into the car, you transform into a devil. And then you get out, and you're a very decent, friendly, kind person, but then you drive it and say, wow!

Janis

Hahaha. It's human nature, but let's try to be mindful of it!

Roberto

OK, so thank you. Thank you to everyone. And thank you, Janis. Talk soon.

Janis

Talk soon. Bye bye.

Roberto

Bye bye.