Key insights from the conversation

Introduction and personal stories

• Jacqueline's journey in international project management and change management.

• Creating connections and breaking down silos in projects to foster better communication and success.

New ways of work, well-being and change management

• Laughter Yoga benefits and its application in work.

• Projects often fail due to lack of communication and cultural differences.

• Open dialogue and creative problem-solving to overcome barriers and foster team cohesion.

Personal growth and curiosity

• Continuous learning: a growth mindset and staying curious about others' perspectives.

• Integrating fun and games into training sessions to boost engagement and learning.

• Creating a non-judgmental environment where people can express themselves freely.

Trust and vulnerability

• The need for trust and vulnerability in teams to foster openness and creativity.

• The importance of human interactions over technological tools for successful project management.

Future vision and technology

• A future where human intelligence and AI work together to enhance productivity and well-being.

• The potential of combining different domains to create innovative solutions.

• Encourage everyone to incorporate more laughter into their daily lives for better mental health.

Full transcript

Here is the entire conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here's also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn Live.

Roberto

Hello. Hi Jacqueline, great to see you.

Jacqueline

Hi Roberto! It's a pleasure, it's an absolute pleasure.

Roberto

Yeah, me too. I'm very excited to do this live with you today. And actually, it had been a long time, no, since we planned. I want to thank you for taking the time, for the commitment, and for being here present 100 % with me and with the people who are going to connect, which, by the way, now we are live.

So, first of all, I would like to tell a little story about how we met in February of last year, 2023, and was in a meeting of the Fast Track program of the Management 3.0 community, which is a fantastic community—a big shout-out to the team to Sara, who is a brilliant community manager. We had a lot of fun there. So we met there, and in one of the sessions, Jacqueline mentioned that she could do some laughter yoga sessions. We had this joke about the laughter yoga for a few sessions, and then finally, she asked why we shouldn't start with an icebreaker for 15 minutes of laughter yoga. And we did it.

It was one of the things that I still remember most vividly today, and I thought how amazing it is: just 15 minutes of exercise and you can get so much energy, and it's so contagious, even online. So I had this, I reached out and say, hello, Jacqueline, I love that. And then time passed.

Finally, I could also do one laughter yoga session in person with our team at my company; it was like some team building.

And it was brilliant. It was a fantastic experience, and the people who had great feedback. So, I posted about this experience here on LinkedIn and thanked Jacqueline for introducing me to it.

And then you had the idea, very generous from you, to offer to do a session online with friends, with family, with coworkers, whoever I wanted. I chose a few coworkers. We organized this again as a community event; more than 40 people were in the session. We had waiting lists for the session because we could not be so many people. We had waiting lists. It was like, wow, there was so much, let's say, hype in the good sense, of course. It's something that we also have very good memories of.

And so when we chatted at the end, we said, why don't we have a live conversation and share more about these things that we love? With this introduction, which is a little bit longer, I know because of the story, I think it was worth it. I would love to hear Jacqueline's story. What's your story? Because you are not only a facilitator of laughter yoga but a change management agent, communicator, and coach. What's your story? What brought you to this combination?

Jacqueline

I think so. Well, thanks for this introduction. It feels terrific. Wow, is it all about me? Every time I do a laughter yoga session, I greatly enjoy it. It gives me a lot of energy as well. And it's fascinating to see how it sparks everyone, how everyone's changed, how the face has changed afterward, and how much more relaxed it is.

And I've seen quite some different people now that I've been working with for laughter yoga. So yeah, that's really, it's really powerful. I know it sounds always bizarre, but it is mighty.

My story. So I'm Dutch, and I've always been interested in international. That's always been something for me. In a way, I've always been interested in connections, not connections like networks, but creating connections between people.

I also started my career in international project management. So, I am working through international projects, transverse projects, etc.

And quite early, I noticed that people were not speaking to each other. So, some projects don't succeed because there are no connections, and people do not dare to speak about problems. After all, people don't dare to talk with the others. It's like when you're at a party. Most people speak only with the people they know when they're at a party. But it would be much more fun to pick five people from the crowd you don't know and start some discussions with them.

There are always out-of-the-box things, and there are always some pleasant surprises.

So, I went after my project management to change management. I had a team of 10 people and developed a company's change management processes. We tried to open up, to break those silos, to have people come together, and to work on those elements where very often projects don't succeed. And that was very interesting because I noticed that people, in general, are motivated. They want to do good things. But then, because they don't understand it, they are afraid many things make them step back and, ultimately, that project will not succeed. I don't know if you have also experienced that on your side.

Roberto

Yeah, and I love what you say about how it's all about the people, especially perhaps what I hear from the international project. Maybe you also have cultural differences and ways of speaking. You said you're Dutch. I'm Italian; I live in Spain. Then, we have different ways to relate and to view relationships. And yet maybe we even, you mentioned that we also have always had good intentions, but perhaps we don't know how to approach someone, and we fear something out of fear, then what happens that people don't speak? And if you don't talk, things don't happen.

And I also love what you say about picking five and seeing; it reminds me of something from my coaching perspective: seeing the people as creative, full of resources, and whole. When you approach, for example, a conversation from the perspective of what I will discover about this person in front of me, What amazing things are there just to be brought to the surface?

Jacqueline

Yeah, and like when you said speaking about international and different cultures, when I went and did my studies and went to the south of France for one year, the Erasmus project, I was entirely out of my comfort zone, and it has taught me so much. It has taught me so much because I was so self-assured that this is how things should be. And I was all alone in the south of France, and it turned out that I didn't understand the language that well.

Those people all had very different ways of living, etc. And I had a chance to meet very nice people who took me, explained me, etc. And that's where cultural differences are essential. And I still have those friends, for example, French friends, but I also have Scottish friends with whom I got connected. When you are out of your comfort zone in a cultural way or another, and if you dare to open up, you learn so much yourself, and you grow a lot. And I still have a lot to learn, trust me.

But I think that's very interesting because, as you can see, you can learn so much from other people. And that's why we create synergies, etc. So that's really what I like to do in life.

Roberto

I love your perspective, which is that of curiosity. It's like I'm in a different environment. I don't know everything. I know how I see the world and want to be curious about what's there. And then what happens is that people see that in you and support you because, as you said, people want to do good things. No one wants to do bad stuff on purpose. It's all miscommunication, all this kind of thing. If you go straight like an open book and say, okay, this is my way, I want to hear what your way is, explain it to me. And then amazing things happen.

Jacqueline

It does. I have three kids, and I try to work with them in this creative way. So sometimes, when we face a problem or something they don't like, I say, okay, how can we solve this? And then I tell them, okay, find me five different ways to explain this. And I think I ask them to think out of the box. And I think they now understand that the weirder they get the ideas, the better it is because we're not necessarily looking for the best ideas, okay, or most realistic.

Sometimes, the way we think is entirely different from the way others think. So, we should think out of our perspective. It's like what Einstein says. I have a big poster of Einstein where he says if you have a problem and have one hour to solve it, I spent 55 minutes thinking about the problem, creativity, et cetera, and only five about the solutions. And I think that's true because it's where we think we know everything. We think of our perspective. We're not in a creative way. We're to move. And I know that, generally, I'm a pretty dynamic person, as it seems. Still, it's also to dare to think and to open to other ways of working where that sparks your creativity, and you can come up with something sometimes very innovative, but at least something different, and it helps.

Roberto

Yeah, and I love what you say about not jumping to action the first moment. So it's very human; I admit that I also do it. I'm very action-oriented. So I have, and this is something that I also talk about with my coach, and before going into action, you first have to know what you want, what you don't like, and who you are. And that's also another way to see the 55 minutes thinking about the problem. I think about the problem and how I want to behave in this situation and then act. But we often go on autopilot and like, oh, what happened? And we look back and say; I didn't intend to do this. And I love what you said about the children, and it reminds me of the idea, yeah, because I am also a father of two, and they teach me so much daily.

One thing that is connected with what you said is having fun at work. And I think it's also dear to you. Can you tell me a little about how you see having fun at work?

Jacqueline

Having fun is important because you must take the wire out and stop when you have electricity. Only at that moment can you think of other things. When I'm always working, working, working, and trust me, if my boss is listening, I'm working. Don't worry; I'm more productive.

If I take it, sometimes it can be fresh air or if I jump. So, yeah, I know I try to make fun at work as well. I am also part of my work as a consultant who provides training. And I often say that I want to have fun during training. I want to play games. And sometimes, in the beginning, they look at me like she's weird. And I said, no, for me, playing games is serious. There's a very famous TED talk from Sir Ken Robinson, he's speaking about education, and our whole education system is far too serious.

So we're not, as from when kids are small, we teach them to be serious and to listen, et cetera. I have had the chance to learn through Montessori education. And I've always loved to go to school because there were always new things I could learn, there were also new things I could test. And so I'm less afraid, and I'd like to have a blank page because that's where I can create the whole world. And that's also what I want to bring to work. Sometimes, we do icebreakers in our teamwork, or I come up with a weird question, and they now know, okay, when Jacqueline is dynamic, she will ask an odd question maybe, but okay, it's a safe space. I'm not there to judge. And that's important when you want people to be, to dare not to be too serious, and to have fun; you need to ensure that it's not about judging afterward. There's this safe space where you can have fun, and afterward, we'll work again.

Roberto

I 100 % agree on that. And what you said about creating a safe space is so important. One thing is that perhaps sometimes we think we have to be the manager or the leader of a project to do that, but not necessarily. And I discovered in many ways that we can influence our surroundings much more than we think. Maybe bring a joke or something, or you can put something funny in the presentation, such as an image or whatever. And then people may see you in another light because they say, OK, you have different facets. You're not just monochromatic. There are very a lot of shades of colors and other things. And then you also permit them to do this thing because they see that nothing happens, and on the contrary, you have fun, you bring a smile, and you have an impact on them.

Jacqueline

In my previous job, there was a manager, and he was kind. It was no problem, but he liked having this professional position. And whenever he got stressed, he would not let the stress out. So we, at one moment, when he was ill, he always wore a pullover with a neck, I don't know what you call that. So, one moment, we noticed he was stressed again, but he would never tell because he needed to be this professional single-color person. And it's a pity because it's not good for health.

You cannot just always be one very serious person. It would be best if you let go. Otherwise, you will collapse at one moment. There are so many people with burnout. Some so many people also have brownouts because they get bored. And I think that's a pity. That's what motivated me.

For change management, that's also what motivated me at one moment to try to be an entrepreneur and to give, like with Precious Prana, different sessions. That's what took me to the laughter yoga. And it also took me another way to sound healing because I do sound healing with a gong bath. So, I have people aligned. So I'm coming in this room like, hey, this is Jacqueline, the dynamic person, but I'm going to relax you. So it's sometimes like, are you sure you'll relax us?

And yes, I manage to relax them because I can also wind down. I do my internal meditation and then take them like I am on a sound healing journey. And I will never be just a full-time sound healer because other friends do that well. But it's this mix between managing to generate dynamics and a spark and being joyful and then unwinding to say, OK, now we're going to unwind, and we're going to relax.

And that's important, and I think in a work environment, it's essential because, for the moment, we do not see that stress will be reduced. And even when we do remote work nowadays, there's still the stress. So, it's crucial to, once again, as I said at the beginning, to keep this connection. And it's only when we manage to be in good health ourselves that we dare to speak up, create a connection, and be curious about the other person.

Roberto

I love it. What you say is normalizing the fact that we have many feelings. We have a range of emotions. We have a range of moods. We cannot be 100 % high. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all the time. And we cannot be 100 % serious all the time because it's very dull. So, also, when you show more of who you are, people will probably trust you because, in the end, what you said is that you all knew that your manager was stressed and he was holding like all constant tension, and you could feel it even through the screen. And maybe he was doing it out of good intentions. I don't want to pass down to my team all this stress, all this anxiety.

And on the contrary, what you're doing, you're building it up. And instead, if you say, you know what? I am very stressed today; I had a bad day. I had whatever, fought with my kid, my dog, my wife, whatever. And they will say, okay, I understand you, and you are human as I am, and let's go. And then when you express that, which also happens in coaching, when you express a complex emotion, you say, oh, it wasn't so bad at all. And when you hold it, it's when it gets bigger.

Jacqueline

So true. And I like what you said about trust because it is all about trust. And we are afraid to trust others and life in a way. But the trust will give us strength and ensure that we can advance. So, yeah, you must mention trust, much like that.

Roberto

Yeah, because at the same time, when you are showing this kind of weakness or vulnerability, let's call it, you are taking a bet and exposing yourself. And so, okay, what are they going to say? And you never know what people are going to say. Even if you have a safe space, you never know; maybe someone will judge you. Maybe someone will understand you. It's just what you can control is how you show up, and you cannot control how people relate to that.

Jacqueline

Because we never know what their day was, what argument they had indeed, or whatever problem they may have occurred. Even though it always looks very bright on the outside of people, everyone has their issues. If we feel that we can speak up about our problems, I think, yeah, it's the trust again that comes back, but it's also that then we can open up and to find a little bit of sparkle that comes in through, from the like a ray of light in the darkness and that can do so much good actually.

Roberto

It's the third or fourth time that you mention the spark. I'm so curious.

Yeah, it looks like it's essential to you. I'm so curious. What's the spark for you? How does it ignite the spark in the people?

Jacqueline

It can be in different ways. Indeed, the spark is vital for me because I need to feel that people are alive. If people are not alive, why are you not feeling alive? Is there something bothering you? Yeah, and so either I try to create their spark because I like to have them talk, or I tell silly stories because I'm very good at telling them.

So, there are different ways I want to make them smile because that's how I can build something. I cannot build on something that doesn't breathe. And I always like to build. But to build, I need to have something breathing, you know? And so yeah, for me, the spark is essential because that's either I can build, or I can build together with the people, and that's like foundation, I think, in a way.

Roberto

Yeah, it's again like spending 55 minutes having the people be alive and five minutes deciding which action you want to do instead of 55 minutes debating from a place of boredom or disconnection. Yeah, the action from this place is much more powerful than just process-oriented action and all in from the first moment. Yeah, absolutely.

Jacqueline

Oh, that's tiring, oh my god, yeah, yeah.

Two weeks ago, I did a laughter session, yoga voice, and a tiny group. It was students, and they would have to do their test the day after. And so they knew each other and were already laughing a lot. This is cool; I like that. And then one of the guys was laughing very loud. I was like, okay, it's good, but it sounded nearly too much, you know?

So maybe there was a stress underneath and made a lot of noise during the session. And then, in the end, when I saw his face again after the relaxation part of the laughter yoga, his face changed, and his laughter was very different. And so there was a whole other way of sparking through him because he finally managed to relax from his stress.

On the following day of the test. And it was so; there was such calmness on his face. And he said to himself, yeah, actually, I know how different I feel. It's like something else has come to life in a way. And it felt so good. And I was really, it marked me a lot because I was like, oh, this guy, he's young, he laughs very easily.

But there's a whole other way of laughter coming up. And so that's another way of the spark that came through him, which he discovered of himself. That was nice because I managed maybe in a way to create a safe place. And even though he was with friends, et cetera, there was this whole different way of how he appeared afterward. I don't know. I felt it necessary to share here.

Roberto

Yeah, and this somehow relates to me with coaching. So you create a safe space, permit the people to express who they are and what they want to do without judgment, and stay there. What connection do you see in this?

Jacqueline

I do; there's an obvious connection because people, even though we say we can be multi-colors, often have another layer of a person behind all those colors. There's the natural person behind it who has always had lots of hesitations, who has always fears. We all have our fears. I have lots of worries, hesitations, incertitudes. You do have some, and maybe our listeners do, too. But if you create with the coaching, if you manage to make this safe space and the place where these people, this person can speak. Then he dares, hey, someone is listening to me.

And I followed the training with a company called Tiresio. I did their bubbles. So they have bubbles. So it's 20-minute bubbles for coaching. You have this list of questions, and on purpose, they ask you not to ask more questions and not to intervene.

It's this bubble you create for the person, and it makes this place where they start to think of themselves. I don't need to guide them; I ask them questions, and I'm there to listen because you feel if it's remote with or without a camera, a person feels if you listen to them. When you listen to them and leave the room, this person will be themselves. This whole very enriching process comes up where this person is. That's where you have this entire source of richness inside a person. Yes, so I like coaching a lot. I don't do it much with my consulting, but I try to use those parts at least whenever I have time.

Roberto

Yeah, absolutely. I know what you say about being seen. It's like we all want to be seen. We want to talk about ourselves. Yeah, of course. One quote from the book, Dale Carnegie, is not to be interested, be interested. By the way, the book has a title, How to Influence People, When Friends and Influence People, which is perhaps not a very good title. It looks like, "Oh, I want to win a friend". But the essence is to see the people, to be curious about the people, and to listen. And everyone wants to explain their story. Everyone wants to discover that they have something in common. And this is beautiful. And absolutely, we can feel when we are being listened to, really, and where we, okay, check, I have to ask this. How are you? How are you? I find you, okay, let's go. Like, no.

Jacqueline

Those discussions are horrible. Yeah.

Roberto

Yes. Yeah. And I'm curious, all of this, what's the biggest surprise that you have in mixing all these things? We talked about the spark. We talked about coaching change management. What are the most unexpected things that you discover?

Jacqueline

It's a challenging question because I still have a long road. I learned so much about myself from it. I see other facets of myself because I was trained to be this perfect woman from a business school, working on optimizing projects and processes, etc. Maybe it's also about age. But then, gradually, as I meet, I connect with people and see their fears. I have in-depth connections, and I learn about their passions. I discover a whole other way. I'm like, wow. So, I learned many things about myself, such as not always needing to be the best-optimized person. And being perfect is no longer necessary because no one's perfect. And I think it isn't delightful if we're just perfect.

So I also appreciate the beauty of everything and everything about life around it, I think. So it's my richness that I discover, and with that, I understand the beauty of life much more. So maybe it sounds very philosophical, but I think that's what it taught me because I listen more to people, I am more interested, and so it's this variety of things that maybe I would have never learned about, and it helps me grow in a way as well.

Roberto

Yes, it reminds me of what we initially discussed about widening our range. In how we look into other people and discover things, maybe we see, I want this. Or maybe, oh, I already have this. I didn't know. And I want to express more of this part. And so what you said is brilliant because I feel the same. And it's perhaps no coincidence when we do coaching or are in a deeper relationship with that person, and we're interested in what happens and connecting. We see something, the person will say, I want that; I love to have that. And we know we can take their gift and, oh no, this is not me. Why not?

We can be organized, we can be professional, we can be caring parents, we can be friends, we can be many things. We can be sons, daughters, et cetera. And all of these are not subtracting from each other. We don't give up something just to be professional. We are still professionals and we all have these different kinds of things. So yeah.

Jacqueline

And I think it makes life more enjoyable. We have long been educated to be this or that type of person. But if we see how many people are unhappy, I think it's important to show that. In my life as a consultant, one of my key messages is also that I want to share my experiences with some customers on how we set up things. I want to help other customers grow by sharing those experiences. Of course,

With privacy, etc. I don't share confidential information, but that is also very important. Now, it's my turn also to help other people grow. And I think it's only when I have the trust of people that I can learn how things are set up and use that to help others grow. And it can be people, and it can be companies.

Roberto

It also reminds me of what they said about the kids: when we are kids, we can do everything, and kids are always happy.

I still have to see a child who is not happy 99 % of the time. And this is amazing. We must respect that and protect it as much as we can and maybe bring something of that out again. And this is a gift from our children and the children that we have, you know, surrounding us so that we can learn from them to be fun again and to do their work because yeah one more thing which is very funny my son when he was building his Lego yesterday he was building his Lego. He said in Italian, "Stop bothering me, I'm working," and then I thought, "Oh yeah, exactly. This is what's for you". Play is work for the kids. And we have to respect that. And if they say, oh, Dad, I'm playing, this means I'm doing meaningful work. I'm learning how to interact with the Lego, which will give me creativity and many things in the future. So we have to respect and support that. And, of course, sometimes you have to say, okay, five more minutes, and then let's go.

Jacqueline

That's our role as well, but I so agree with you. Years ago, I noticed that I wasn't playing enough anymore. I was just being serious, like, you're playing and all the toys everywhere. And I was like, I don't want to be like this. Gosh, what has happened to me? Why am I no longer fun enough? I'm just thinking of things to be done, and I don't want just to be annoying. And so that's why I try to change. And as you said in the beginning, my kids have taught me so much. It's sometimes very tiring, but they have taught me a lot. And now I like, we are crazy together, and they know, they tell me, oh mom, you're so crazy. And then, yes, I'm sorry, but that's better than lying than being too serious every time.

Roberto

Absolutely. Absolutely, exactly. 100%. Yeah.

Let's check the chat to see which questions we have.

There's a point here that makes Deborah agree. It is about trust. I would add confidence. It is interesting. What's your view on this?

Jacqueline

Yes, I agree with Deborah. Trust goes with confidence because if I trust a person, I'm confident that I can speak up. It's like having faith in life. If I have faith in life, then I'm optimistic, and then I dare to get out of this comfort zone that will help me grow, that will help me meet other people, make me help speak to that awful person in the accounting department, but I need to talk to this person.

It turns out we have common hobbies or something like that. And wow, it's the best thing ever to discuss with that. Yes, yes, I very much. And I think we are often in a world where we don't have trust and confidence. And we should build that again. Like the kids, the kids are not worried in a way, and most of the kids are not. My kids grew up in a very comfortable zone but are not concerned about their future. They will manage. That's how they speak about it. And they're not afraid to do things. And so, yes, they're confident. So, yeah, that's an excellent point, Deborah. Yeah.

Roberto

Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you say about the kids. I would also say that maybe you will have confidence if you see someone doing these things. If you see someone that says, OK, I had to make a mistake, nothing happens, and they don't get punished. And they say, OK, so I can do it also. I have confidence because I know if I do something wrong or do not ace it at first, nothing will happen, and they will not judge me. They will not punish me. At the same time, I may have confidence if someone sees me, as you said in the beginning. If I feel seen, I will have the confidence to show them something more about myself and them. It may come from the inside, but at the same time, it comes from the environment.

Jacqueline

Yes, it's like the agile way of working, where it's more officially allowed to make mistakes because you do a minimum viable project. You do test and learn. I was trained in design thinking, and in design thinking, you need to think out of the box; to do that, you need to be in an environment where you're okay with making errors. And it's only when you try to make those errors that you try something else. If not, it's like the fixed mindset with a growth mindset—a fixed mindset, you don't dare to do it another way.

So you will not make mistakes because that's not how we do it. Okay. In a growth mindset, you are encouraged to try to, and it's accepted that you can make mistakes because if you take little steps, your mistakes will also be small. So it will not all of a sudden be millions of dollars you throw out. And that's also important, I think, to try to work as a team because when you work as a team, you don't feel having that pressure on your shoulder saying, okay, if I make a mistake, oh my God, it will be just me.

Now, if you do it with a team, it's much better. I have cards over behind it. It's like teamwork makes the dream work. And then, as a team, you encourage each other, and you're okay with taking little steps, and then it's easier to share the pressure when there are errors.

Roberto

Yeah, absolutely. And I would also add that working as a team does not mean we're not accountable for a part of the work. It means that the team supports us. You know what you have to do. You know what's your role. You can communicate. You can also have a healthy conflict with your teammates when it's the moment because conflict makes us go and solve problems. And then, and actually, this is one of the parts that I love most when we have a good debate, and we say, okay, yeah, because it's like, you see that you are holding each other accountable, and you say, okay, no, I don't like this. That's not how I see it. But then you respect each other because I say, okay, this is how you see it. And I am quiet and listen to the other person. I don't think I will reply with that; instead, I will try to listen to what's in their head. And then it's what things work, and we have fun. I remember that we had a meeting where there were some position differences. And when we acknowledged that.

And we say, okay, now we will talk for one hour about why we are doing this. What are we going to do? And we're not talking about action. As you said in the first part, 55 minutes discussing the problem and then five minutes into action.

And it's fantastic because when you do that, it's like, okay, you get out all the pressure. After all, you have the opportunity to express yourself. You feel hurt, but then you say, okay, now we have to do something. Let's go. We cannot stay three hours debating. Now, we need to go into action.

Jacqueline

In the end, you will need to. That's so true. It reminds me as well of quite some years ago. I worked on a digitization project, and I had someone completely different from me. I needed to work with this person, and initially, it was okay. But then we were not in line at one moment, but no one was there to speak up. So, there came this weird situation. At the moment, I am in conflict. I said, okay, we need to speak up. So we went, both of us.

We had quite some temper, and we were conflicted. Just the two of us in a room; there were no outside people, et cetera. So it was comfortable in a way. And gosh, how did that do lots of good? It was like thunder, and the sky was blue again. Since then, we have been working so well together. And yeah, I think it's very important to dare to make conflict if necessary, but respectfully. And listen, as you say, listen to someone.

Roberto

Exactly. Also, I'm sure that this person now trusts that when you have something you disagree with, you will say that, and you will not go around her back and say, oh, I wouldn't say I like this. It's wild. And because now you have the experience that you did it, you resolve the conflict, you have each one of their voice, and now you trust each other more because of that.

Jacqueline

Yeah, and I want to point out that we live in a very technological tool-oriented world. But all those things, all those tools, et cetera, are fascinating. They are there for me; they are there to help us. But our relationships with humans, for me, are essential. Without us connecting, creating links, et cetera, and being there to speak up, build trust, and spark,

For me, those tools that we have around us are not of any use. So I've always lived in quite a tech world, and I'm definitely not against tech, but it's just always, sometimes, we need to reposition the place of technology and tools and the place of humans. And especially when we speak more about artificial intelligence, I think it's important to understand what we can bring and that we dare to create those connections because they are essential from my point of view.

Roberto

I 100 % agree. So it's so challenging and tempting to go into the tool and say, okay, I have this perfect tool to do this and that. And then you forget about it. You said at the beginning of the conversation that you don't discuss techniques or processes when you talk about change management. You said people don't speak. That's one reason budgets don't work. Not that the technology is not working. Of course, you must have a promising technology, but perhaps we take it for granted.

Then, the challenge is to make people talk and relate as humans. Yeah.

Jacqueline

It's like the coaching that's so there's a type of coaching that I'm finalizing now. It's around the OBEYA principle and linked to my work. So we have this OBEYA room, but the OBEYA room itself will not be enough. It's meeting all of them together in that room, having a discussion, speaking up, exchanging, and discussing, okay, where we are planning and what problems we encounter.

How are we going to solve those problems together and have accountability? And that's all about humans. And yes, we can have that in a digital way or in a paper way as a tool around us, but humans will still need to connect and work throughout this whole process. And that's why it's still so important. And I think that's something that, for me, is very motivating. I like to use the tools, but it's around the rituals, around the way of working.

We will be able to build a company or a project, and wow, future products for tomorrow will make a difference and be helpful.

Roberto

Absolutely. Now that you mentioned that, and I see I'm conscious of the time, you still have a few minutes. I would love to hear, now that you're talking about the future of work and project, what's the thing that excites you the most at this moment and the project that you want to share with the people who are hearing this? And with me, of course, I'm curious.

Jacqueline

What's the project that I like most? I'm not afraid of artificial intelligence. I think it's nice. And I would love for tomorrow we can build or maybe start today like Elon Musk; we can like him, or we might not like him. But I like how he plans for the future. And I think there may have been things in previous civilizations that have been far more advanced than we are today. And maybe we can combine different knowledge that we can have combining our human brain, our psychological way of working, and our tools to build something of technology where we can go much further and much quicker and make us all happy, I think tomorrow. So it's maybe a bit vague, but I think that's like combining our intelligence with artificial intelligence to create another way of working for tomorrow. And that can also be in line with our planet's quality because I think that's something we need to work on.

Roberto

Yes, I would love that. I love this. Of course, it's a generic vision, but it's so broad. No one can see; I'm not able to see more than, I don't know, even two or three years. I have no idea. But yes, I also share the vision that with all this technology, maybe we can free ourselves from the things we don't like or don't want to do, and we can center on the things we enjoy and maybe have more fun.

Of course, work a little bit, let's say work a little bit less, but it's not work; it's play more. Do more things we love because you will not feel like I'm working. It's like my son, he's like, yeah, I'm building a Lego, doing important work, and having so much fun.

Jacqueline

You can ask your son what he would like to build, and maybe he has lots of imagination for something that we can make, and we as adults will say, oh no, that's not possible; that's too complicated. But no, maybe it's not difficult because they all still have the ideas. And then, with technology, we might be able to build those things from tomorrow that make a child happy, and maybe that will do a lot of good for adults as well. I think we should not limit ourselves always to things that are possible. I'm not a science fiction guru, but I believe science fiction has many creative and positive aspects. Often, we focus on what's negative, but I think there are many things we can build that are very positive, not just to work less but to use ourselves in another way. We can unite with technology, artificial intelligence, and us. And I think we can create lots of good synergies.

Roberto

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And when you say work less, I would also add that you shouldn't do the same thing all day. We can mix and combine. And when we think about it, imagine that we are working whatever, eight, 10, 12, six hours, whatever it is. The next hour always has a marginal return lower than the first one. So, my vision is to know how to bring together all these things. We can work in one domain, work in another, work in another, and combine all of this, and then you get the maximum return for all of this, and you can combine all of this and create something.

Jacqueline

I feel what you say. I mean, it creates a connection between those things as well. It's like when someone, there have been significant innovations of combining different domains of activities where people would say, no, that's not possible. But it is likely because that's where it's wild. And that's where you create, like, once again, I say a synergy, and you need those people to spark and dare to think, hey, maybe I can combine this with that.

And that's something like I have; I take magic courses. So, I need to think out of the box. It isn't easy sometimes for me because I need to switch. But it's so interesting because suddenly, my teacher showed me exciting magical tricks with something straightforward. And I'm like, yes, that's great. And then I get this spark, connecting different parts of my brain. Oh, but you can do that and that. And then I think maybe something all of a sudden, like something for work or something related to kids or whatever, you know? And that's what we need. That's why we humans are mighty, I think.

Roberto

This is a beautiful definition. And I'm also conscious of now we have five more minutes. I would love to hear one of the final questions: what is something that you want to share, perhaps with the people, or, let's say, how can people reach out to you and anything that you want to share and invite?

Jacqueline

So there's a podcast that I'm listening to often, and he says at the end, he said, what would you want to open the door to, and what do you want to close the door to? It's a French podcast. It's called VLAN, V -L -A -N, if any French-speaking people are listening. And so I would like to open, for example, the door to laugh more. Okay. It may sound very weird, et cetera. And I know there are a lot of people who are still hesitating.

But even if you're in the toilet, laugh, okay? Because it will help you do good. So that's something I would like you to take with you. Even though my whole life is definitely not about laughter yoga, everyone tries to laugh. Try to laugh some more.

How do you reach me? Of course, there's LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn without any problem. That's maybe the most straightforward way because that's where I'm most reactive.

I still have a website for my other activity, Precious Prana. But that's more if you want to share on well-being activities and energy activities. However, I think the easiest way would be to use LinkedIn. And I will be happy to meet new people to discuss with you. I'm curious, so I would love to hear from you.

Roberto

Thank you for your energy, enthusiasm, and optimism. We need much more of this and can bring it to you. It's so easy. You just gave us an example of how easy it is to get this energy in our lives. Thank you.

Jacqueline

It was an absolute pleasure, Roberto, and thank you to everyone who was there to join. And if I managed to give you some energy, spark, or give you some sunlight, my day is perfect. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Roberto

It has been so much fun. Thank you again. Thank you, everyone. And see you next time. See you soon. Bye -bye.

Jacqueline

Thank you. See you soon! Bye bye everyone! Have a good afternoon and have a good day! Bye bye