Key insights from the conversation

The power of curiosity and lifelong learning

• The importance of staying curious and open to growth.

• Humans are "infinitely fascinating"

• The emphasis on a growth mindset as personal dynamics evolve.

Building Exceptional Relationships

• Six key characteristics: mutual understanding, honesty, trust, conflict resolution, investment in each other's growth, and vulnerability.

• These principles foster deeper, more resilient connections.

The role of vulnerability and authenticity

• Balanced vulnerability is essential for building trust.

• "Appropriate authenticity" in leadership allows leaders to acknowledge challenges and empower their teams.

Navigating hierarchies and giving feedback

• How the “15% rule” encourages small steps outside comfort zones to foster growth.

• Feedback as a tool for connection and growth, not criticism.

Tools for emotional connection and empathy

• The emphasis on empathy and emotionally meeting others, especially in conflict resolution.

• Practical approach to emotional dynamics, accessible through her book and Carole Robin AI.

Democratizing interpersonal skills for a broader impact

• Carole’s mission to make interpersonal skills widely accessible through her book and CaroleRobin.AI.

• Her vision of equipping people with skills for healthier, resilient communities.

Where to find Carole, her work and projects

• LinkedIn

• Book "Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues"

• Leaders in Tech: programs for leaders of high-growth tech companies from all over the world

• CaroleRobin.AI: your personal guide to fostering deeper connections in all aspects of your life

Full transcript

Here is the entire conversation transcript, edited for clarity and conciseness. Here's also the link to the conversation on LinkedIn Live.

Roberto

Hi Carole, Great to see you.

Carole

Hello Roberto. So happy to be here.

Roberto

Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for being here and for your generosity. We're already live. I see that 28 people have already connected.

Carole

Well, welcome to those of you who are already here.

Roberto

So I will, first of all, thank you for your generosity, your time, and being here, as well as the people who are investing one hour of their time, which is the only thing we cannot get back. When it's gone, it's gone. We hope that this is a valuable investment of time.

At the same time, we will not check the chart during the conversation until the middle of the conversation. Still, we invite you to say something in the chat, say hi, or drop a question, and then we will check the question in the middle of the conversation.

First of all, Carole, thank you again for being here. You have been a professor at Stanford University for twenty-plus years, teaching the Interpersonal Dynamics course, which the students call " touchy-feely."

After Stanford, you started Leaders in Tech, a nonprofit that also connects your work with technology. You wrote a fantastic book called Connect, which I have here, about building exceptional relationships with family, friends, and colleagues. You've worked with David Bradford, the other professor of the course. I'm so excited to be here with you today. First of all, I have one question.

The first question I have for you is, by the way, if I have a goal with this, that the people listening are curious about this that we're talking about and go deeper into that.

You should maybe buy the book and check your work. The purpose of this is to share it with the most people possible. And yeah, and actually, I'm curious about one thing. What keeps you excited and involved in this after so many years?

Carole

You know, it's interesting that you should ask me that question because I just got back from a four-day retreat that we did for our leaders in tech participants. And one of them asked me the exact same question. This is so exhausting. How could you have done it for so many years? My answer is quite simple: I never get bored first. I might get tired, but I never get bored because humans are infinitely fascinating, and everyone is different. So, just because you have figured out how to break through and connect with one person doesn't mean that you've got it all figured out for the person standing next to you. So it's infinitely fascinating. That's one.

And two, I would be a billionaire if I had a dollar for every time somebody has said to me, work, coming across these concepts, and learning these skills, which changed my life. So, you know, I get hundreds of calls, emails, and visits from former MBAs from Stanford saying, I just became a CEO; I owe it all to you. We would expect that from a business school, or I just raised my third round of financing, and I was successful and owe it all to you. But the one that means even more to me is that I'm pretty sure your course saved my marriage. And now I get it.

Thank you for finally writing a book because my brother didn't go, or my co-founder didn't go to Stanford Business School, so it didn't take touchy-feely. And now we have this way of learning how to do this together. And it's completely changed our relationship. So that's what keeps me going. It's so satisfying. Frankly, I was put on the planet to do this, to help people learn how to connect, especially across their differences.

Roberto

That's wonderful. And when you said that every time is different, exactly. And it's something that today works even with the same person.

Carole

You're not the same person as you were a year ago. We're all works in progress.

Roberto

Exactly. Exactly. We think we have this person figured out, and then something happens: they change, their identity changes, and what worked doesn't work. What I hear from you is that being constantly curious about the other person is one of the keys to having this type of relationship. Don't let our assumptions blind us.

Carole

That's exactly right. Even when a lesson is hard-fought, and we go through difficulty and finally figure it out, it's too easy to think, "Now I get it. Now I understand." Well, now I know for now.

Roberto

Yes. Thank you for that. You also share in the book, and I strongly recommend it again. You're also sharing in the book one of your personal stories about exactly what happened this quarter.

Carole

Right. Meanwhile, we were incredibly close peers and colleagues and close friends. And he did something that made me so disappointed and angry that I said I would never talk to him again. In fact, in the first chapter, we talk about how, when you get to the end of the book, we tell you how we repaired our relationship. It's a little teaser. But yeah, and we knew each other well, Roberto, and that didn't stop us from stepping on a pile of doo-doo and having to figure out how to fix it.

Roberto

Yes, absolutely. And this is a great learning for everyone. And also for me, I think that we can never think that we have arrived. Then, something happens, and we still have to do our work. And if you have the tools, we are better prepared, but we still have to do the work.

Carole

Yeah, yeah. It gives a whole new meaning to lifelong learning. And in fact, I don't think you can be effective interpersonally if you don't have a growth mindset, you know, to quote Carol Dweck. If you don't see things as I don't know how yet, you know. She adds that word, yet it magically transforms any statement. I can't seem to get through to you yet.

Roberto

Exactly. Exactly. This is so interesting because when we think of a business school, the last thing usually, or at least in my mind when I go to university, is 43. When I went to the university, I would have loved a course called interpersonal dynamics. How is it that, and what's the connection? Of course, the question is tricky. What's the connection between the business school and a course or program about interpersonal relationships and how to be better with family and friends?

Carole

This is a multi-layered question, and I'm glad you asked it. So first of all, to your point, this is not a course hidden away in the psychology department. It's the most popular course at the Stanford Business School. And people choose Stanford over Harvard to take this class. It's one of our claims to fame. And why?

In the end, people do business with other people. They don't do business with ideas, machines, products, or money. They do business with people. So, your success will likely be slightly limited until you learn to get the people part right. But why family and friends? Well, it turns out that the more you help a whole human being be effective, the better they will do in all areas of their life.

So, if we help students have more solid marriages and better relationships with their kids, they will be better leaders at work. And vice versa, if they learn leadership skills, they will be better parents. So, there's a lot of synergy in the skills and competencies they develop. It's a great question.

Roberto

And when you say that, it reminds me also of what we say about this in coaching because we say we don't do coaching to solve the problem. It's coaching to the person, to the whole person. The person comes with a topic, "I struggle with a colleague, blah, blah, blah, blah," and then it comes out some emotion, something, and see that it's something that has to do with the person and how they are and what they express and one side of this expression, it has worked, but then it's all connected.

It should be something to get into more universities. I'm wondering why universities don't have this.

Carole

Well, I'll tell you why. I'll let you know why.

So there's a misconception, first of all, that all this soft stuff, you know, it's just the soft stuff, and it's the hard skills, the accounting and finance, and marketing, you know, so there's no question you need all the hard skills. No question. It's just that they're not enough. It turns out you need both. So, most people who attend university, especially business schools, especially elite business school professors, are into the hard stuff. They're not into the soft stuff.

So that's one of the challenges. The other is that teaching a course like this takes enormous resources, way more than a lecturer standing in front of 75 students, giving them tests, grading papers, or even doing case studies. It's a very high-touch course and, therefore, costly to deliver. And there's a very high cost in getting into it because you have to train many facilitators. So, I taught at Stanford for 20 years and left in 2017.

I also started Leaders in Tech to bring my curriculum to Silicon Valley. But it had been around for a while before I arrived, and the investment in the infrastructure to deliver the course was already in place. So if Harvard decided tomorrow that it wanted to add this course, the investment would be huge, enormous. You'd need somebody very convinced that they need it.

Roberto

Thank you. Thank you. I have never imagined that.

Carole

I'll also tell you another really funny thing. I believe soft skills are the hardest. Not too long ago, I was doing a workshop for the highest-level managers at NASA. At one point, I looked at them and said, "Come on, you guys. They were all men. Come on, you guys. It's not rocket science." One of them looked at me and said, "This is so much harder than rocket science."

Roberto

That's so funny. When you say that, I'm curious. You talk about the investment, and there is also an investment required to reach what you call the level of exceptional relationship. I would love to hear about your exceptional relationship and what it takes to get there.

Carole

I'm also glad you asked that because it's important to know that even though the book's name is Building Exceptional Relationships, we're not suggesting that you should make every single one of your relationships in your life exceptional. That would be exhausting. It would be impractical. It takes way, way too much work. What we're saying, though, is that there are several skills and competencies that it takes to get from dysfunctional or what we call contact and no connection; those are your thousands of Facebook friends to robust and functional. So, if you continue to invest in a relationship, the same skills and competencies you need to become functional or robust will eventually take you to exceptional. So that's what's important about it; it's a continuum.

The six characteristics are the hallmarks of these relationships, especially once they move from contact and have no connection or dysfunction to robustness. First of all, I feel more known by you. It doesn't mean you know every single last, every secret, but I feel known by you, and I allow myself to be known, and you allow yourself to be known, and we trust each other.

And we trust that our disclosures won't be used against us. And we are honest with each other. So, instead of pretending there's no problem and just waiting for it to get bigger and bigger and bigger until it becomes a much more complex problem to solve, we name it. We name challenges. We name it because we care about each other. We tell each other when we see the other person doing something that we think is hurting them and hurting their

Our relationship and maybe their relationship with somebody else. We resolve conflict productively. That's the fifth one. The sixth one is related to the fourth, which is that we're invested in each other's growth. That's the way we show each other that we care. We are invested in each other's growth. And when you have all six of those, to the extent that you have them, you've moved down the continuum, especially towards robust and functional.

The more you invest in all six and the more you do it, the more likely you are to eventually become exceptional. But you had a picture of this: if you invent, if you meet all six characteristics, and you get to robust, it's like climbing.

It's like climbing, hiking a mountain, and getting to the upper meadow. The upper meadow is usually lovely, and you can rest there. You can have a picnic, a glass of wine, and then hang out there. And that's just robust and functional and good enough for most relationships.

Roberto

Exactly. And Carole, let me pick up on something you said about vulnerability. I would love to talk a little bit more about this because it feels like it's the first step. You mentioned getting to know a little bit more. And we often think about who's going first. And should I go first? Should I disclose or not disclose? What are your thoughts about it?

Carole

So you're right about vulnerability and a willingness to be appropriately authentic; I'll come back to what that means and disclose more about yourself, which is a cornerstone. It's not all of it, but it's a cornerstone. Not only is disclosure a way for you to learn more about me, and that takes a risk, but it also is part of my willingness to give you feedback because I make myself vulnerable in giving you feedback, too. So, disclosure and feedback both have to do with vulnerability, and both involve vulnerability.

Now, that said, I want to make two points.

One is appropriate authenticity. So if I'm the VP of marketing and we have lost market share for three months, I stand up in front of everybody and say, no secret. That's three months in a row we've lost share, and I don't know what's going on. I don't understand why it's happening. I have no idea what we should do, and I should probably not be your marketing VP. That might be vulnerable, but that is not what we're saying. OK. That is, that is not what we're advocating.

However, if you stand up and don't even mention that you've lost share for three months, you lose all credibility. So the alternative we're discussing is you standing up and saying, OK, no secret, we've lost share. I wish I could stand here and tell you exactly why and what we should do about it. I have some ideas. I've never needed all of you more. So, which is the leader you'd instead follow? Number one, number two, or number three?

So that's the first point I'll make about vulnerability. The second one is in terms of who goes first. A good heuristic is if you are in a higher power position to the other person, whether it's hierarchically in the organization, know, you're higher or culturally, or in some way, there's a power differential between you. The person in a higher power position must go first because the person in a lower power position is already vulnerable.

So, asking them to go first is unfair. Now that I'm thinking about it, the third thing I'll say is that when you're willing to do that, you model for your people and your family something that creates much stronger, more robust relationships.

Roberto

Absolutely. And you permit them to do that. And if I may share a story, and I did in my theme, we did retrospectives. The beginning of the retrospective was sometimes all about the facts, what happened, and what didn't happen. It's interesting because when I started to share things that I didn't feel good about, I did this or said something inappropriate, or did I not pay enough attention to some details with a colleague in front of the other? Then what happened? The other people also started to do that. And the beautiful thing is that they started this constructive; I think you call it constructive feedback, but also the positive part, because you say, OK, you give the permission to tell the constructive, but there are also good things. So you can speak both.

And if you do it, there's something that I hear from what you say, which is that you can care about the people and at the same time be daring.

Carole

Absolutely. Most people think that the opposite of indirect is, you know, brutal honesty. That is not the opposite of direct. The opposite of direct is indirect is direct. So you, there are ways to let people know that what they're doing harms them, harming us, the team, the organization, and the family.

And, you know, we can get into the details. This means we have detailed models and skills, etc. And it's important to remember that being skillful at giving somebody feedback includes the impact of that person's behavior on you, making you vulnerable. And if you want to provide feedback to somebody and have them listen, your willingness to be vulnerable might make them a little bit more open to it, right? And then you also said we use the word constructive. We use the word constructive, and then we use the word affirming. We never use negative and positive feedback because all feedback is data. More data is always better than less data.

So it's not negative, not bad; it's just constructive. It's a category, and the purpose of constructive feedback is to move into problem-solving, not to change the other person. To say, "Look, when you do this, it results in my feeling this way." If it happens with us, it might happen with other people, but even if it's only us, let's talk about it.

I'll give you a real quick example. So we're in a meeting. You started the meeting. You started the meeting by saying, it's your meeting. And you started by saying, I want to hear from everybody. And so I started to speak during the meeting, and you talked over me. You don't let me finish my sentence. And that happens two or three times. So now I have a choice. I have an option to give you constructive feedback about the impact of your choices during that meeting.

So I can come to you and say, Roberto, you started that meeting saying you wanted to hear from everybody three times. When I started to mention X, Y, and Z, the more specific you could be, the better. You never let me finish. What happened to me was that I felt way less inclined to offer up my opinion after that. But you started the meeting by saying you wanted to hear from everybody. So you didn't hear at least everything I had to say from me. And I just thought I owed it to you to let you know that that was the impact of your behavior on me.

Roberto

Yeah, that's a brilliant example. Also, it feels so about the person and not the other one. So you are talking about yourself all the time. So the other person cannot say, no, that's not true because I know how I feel. You don't know how I feel. So please listen to me, and then you can do whatever you want with this feedback. This brings me to one thing that is probably very interesting to hear from you, which is what you call the three realities. Can you talk a little bit about this? Now we have seen one, which is what I'm feeling and doing. So there is another one.

Carole

That's right. So, in any exchange between two people, there are three realities. The visual on this is helpful. Imagine. I'll use an example. I've used this example a lot, which might even be in the book, but it's a good example.

So imagine me and imagine my husband, and those are reality number one and reality number three. Reality number two is whatever behavior one of us engages in, the only reality known to both. OK, so person number one has their intent, how they see the world, why they do what they do, and do something. That's reality number two. Person number three only knows what they did and its impact on them. So, you've only got two of the three realities at any point.

So here's how this works. When we were much younger, we had little kids at home, and I was home with little kids. My husband would come home from work, and I was desperate for adult interaction; I would come running into the front room, and he would collapse, knowing he was a big Silicon Valley executive. He collapsed on the chair, and he'd pick up the newspaper, and I'd say, my God, your home won't believe what happened today. I went to that new nursery school. It's already closed. I hate this place. Why are we living here? I don't want to be in Palo Alto. Why are we raising kids here? Nyanyanyanyanya. And then he would say he would be reading his newspaper, not on an iPhone, on an actual paper. He's saying, mm-hmm. And then I would say, you're not listening. When I say you're not listening, I am in his reality; I don't know whether he's listening. I'm not in his head.

So we have this metaphorical net that we discuss between reality one and reality two. And when, in this case, he's reality one, and I'm reality three. When I say you're not listening, I am over the net. I'm in his reality.

And what's more, being over the net just causes more defensiveness. Yeah, I was, of course, listening. You said you were all worked up about this new nursery school, and now I get even more agitated. And so then I jump over the net even more. How can you not care? Unless he says, I don't care. I don't know whether he cares or not. How can you be so insensitive? An incredibly insensitive thing to say because he's the most sensitive person I know. So what happens when we jump the net is we impute motives.

We label and make attributions, but that's not good feedback. Instead, if I can say, you know, honey, when I am desperate for adult interaction, and I'm talking about something I'm worked up about, you make no eye contact. And the only thing I get is an occasional grunt or two words. I don't feel heard. I don't feel heard. I can't say, yeah, you do. And when I don't feel heard, I feel sad and distanced. So that's the formula. When you do X, I feel, insert feeling word, which is why there's a vocabulary of feelings in the book, in the appendix. Every student and participant in Leaders in Tech gets a vocabulary of, laminated vocabulary of feelings. You can always tell who's taking touchy-feely at Stanford because they're walking around with their little laminated feelings. It's adorable. But most people don't know how to do that.

Instead, they say, I feel that. I feel that you don't care. I feel like this doesn't matter to you. That's all over the net. There are no feeling words in there. And then if you on top of that add, and I'm telling you this because what I'm hoping the result of this conversation is, and honey, I'm telling you this because when I feel this way, unheard and sad and distanced, I can't be there for you the way I want to be there for you. That's why I'm telling you. So, compare that to the way we usually give feedback, right? But it's a discipline.

Roberto

Yes, absolutely. And when you say this, it feels on one side; I hear the curiosity for the other person. So you're not jumping to judgment. You're gonna say, OK, this is what's happening. What's your intention when you do this? So you are curious on the other side. At the same time, you're sure of how you feel and why you're sharing this, right?

Carole

If we go back to this example, what is making it hard for you to engage with me? The way I need it is curiosity. And then he says, well if you want, you know, my full attention, you have to give me some time to unwind when I get home from work. And now we've moved into problem-solving. OK. How much time do you need? 30 minutes? No, I can't live with 30 minutes. How about 15? No, I want two minutes, right? So we compromised on 15, but you know, so that's the essence of productive exchanges. That's how we handle conflict productively. That's how we can be honest with each other. That's how we get to know each other better.

Roberto

Yeah. And it's so interesting at the same time; I've been there so many times, especially with kids and family, who are the people when we usually come home; there is a metaphor of a bottle shared by my coach, Marie, with me with that. It's like a Coke bottle that we keep shaking all day, and you shake, you shake, you shake, you shake. And then, it's close because you get home, and then you arrive home, relax, open the bottle, and what happens?

Even if we know the theory, we may say something inappropriate. This brings me to a question: How do we repair this when things go wrong?

Carole

Well, there are two things that I want to say—first, the book talks about how we're all equipped with two antennae. One is my internal antenna, which tells me what's going on. I'm tracking my emotional state. The other antenna helps me pick up signals on what might be going on for you. And the more of this work you do, the more you hone that antenna to pick up subtle signals, so if I am worked up after coming home from the office, I'm in touch with that. A really good thing to do when my significant other has their bottled-up stuff is to say, you know what, let's both take a minute and just breathe. And maybe, you know, I mean, I'm a big meditator. So for me, meditation helps a lot. Whatever practice you might have to unwind a little bit already sets a different circumstance and context for the conversation.

Things are still going awry, and we still have to repair it. So there's a whole chapter in the book about repair. And repair requires, first of all, empathy. And that doesn't mean you have to agree with the other person. It doesn't mean that whatever they're feeling is what you would be feeling in that circumstance. So if we go back to the example I gave you, if it wouldn't make him sad, if I weren't responsive, it doesn't matter. He still knows sadness. And so he can be in touch with them; that's why emotions are called touchy-feely. Everything revolves around the feelings because he can relate to sadness. And the minute he can relate to sadness, he can relate to me in that situation instead of whatever caused it.

That's where people get into so much trouble. You know, I don't know, that wouldn't upset me. OK, but you do know upset, don't you? So instead of arguing about the what, you know, what the cause was, meet, and that's what we call meeting somebody emotionally. The better you learn to meet somebody emotionally, the more productive your conversations will be.

Roberto

thank you, Carole, for sharing this. And it just reminded me of what happens with the kids, no? They say they get my son, for example, sometimes gets frustrated. And I reason it's just a stupid whatever, not the work. But then I think, OK, it's his toy. For him, it's like, wow, it's my work. And I'm looking, for example, at his toy off five minutes earlier, and it's like, what would happen to me if someone comes out right now and takes me from the goddess and me out of the office? I would probably be even more violent. So that's the point. OK, I will not get angry when you do this, but I know how it feels.

Carole

Exactly, exactly. And that is so key, so key to empathy, and so key to meeting somebody else emotionally. It wasn't until, if we go back to my co-author and dear friend David and I, and the big fight we had that part of what made it worse and worse that I didn't feel emotionally met. And it wasn't until I did that we could even begin repair. I mean, the other thing is there are different elements, of course. You've got to get to the point where you don't make the other person wrong. And your whole goal isn't just to make the other person wrong. And at the same time, saying I'm sorry is pretty powerful, especially if you mean it.

Roberto

Yeah. It's like you are seeing the person. At least you feel seen. As you said in the beginning, they see how I'm feeling. They disagree, but at least they see me. And so I can calm and again, coming back to the, to the kids when, when I say to my, which by the way, having kids is one of the most beautiful things because they teach us so much. have so many opportunities and if you fail one day, you can try the day after and then.

Carole

They'll give you many more.

Roberto

Exactly. You're so grateful for that. And then when this happens, you say, "OK, I'm sorry." They say, "OK, they forgive you."

Carole

I mean, sometimes, just saying, "I'm sorry; I see how upset you are." That's like saying, "See you." Exactly. It's like a release valve.

Roberto

Exactly. Yes, yes, and it goes down. It's not a big deal.

Carole

Sometimes I say, sometimes I say, would you rather be right or would you rather be effective? A lot of times, when it comes to interpersonal issues, it comes down to that.

Roberto

Yeah. It connects with winning the argument. You want to be right. I want to win. So, if you want to win, then you're the loser. Exactly. So you talk about the antenna.

Now, perhaps it's the moment to switch the antenna to the chat and see if we have any questions. I see time flying. Let's see. I'm just bringing this down here. Let's see if there are any questions. Let me check.

Carlos is asking how we could make this course available in business schools to have healthier societies. Is this not the focus on hard science and the reason behind the worldwide polarizing society? Great question. I see perhaps a connection between the work you do with leaders in tech and your last project with CaroleRobin.ai.

Perhaps you want to talk a little about this, so it's a way to bring this to more people.

Carole

It would be an incredible dream come true if many more business schools adopted this. And I talked a bit about some of the barriers to entry for that. But it also feels important to me that the work be democratized and available to people who can't afford business schools, who can't, know, especially at those prices.

It feels to me, which is why David and I wrote the book. The editor from Penguin Random House who came to us said, so how come there is a course that students have said for decades was worth the entire tuition price, and there's no book? We also noted that you must engage with others because you don't learn about interpersonal dynamics by reading about them. And he said, how are you OK with the only people who get to know this being those who are privileged enough and lucky enough to go to Stanford Business School? So then we looked at each other and said, I guess we'll have to write a book. So it took us four years because the most crucial part of the book is the section at the end of each chapter called To deepen your learning, which tells you what you can do with somebody too.

It disappoints me if somebody picks it up, reads it, and says, well, that's interesting, puts it back on the shelf, and doesn't do anything with it. You will not become more interpersonally competent by just doing that. But if you take even just a few deep dives into your learning sections, you go to the book website, connectandrelate.com. There are all kinds of suggestions. Start your learning group. There's a self-assessment that you can download for free. Take it, see how interpersonally competent you are, and then give it to a few people in your life and compare how they see you to how you see yourself. And now that creates a whole learning agenda for you, right? So we've tried to provide, and that's free. And the book cost is nominal.

And now that's why I'm so excited about Carole Robin AI because Carole Robin AI speaks a hundred languages.

It's been fed everything I ever wrote, not just my book, lectures, and papers. And it's a six-month free trial at the app store. And then, after that, it's pretty nominal. It's like $8 a month or something. But it's like having me as your coach, right? Like you're about to go into a meeting. I don't know what to say because I still feel bad about what happened last time. Or, you know, my wife and I fought, and I don't quite know where to start to repair it. Or, you know, my kid's driving me crazy. I'm afraid I will do something that's not very productive. So you can ask it anything, anytime, in a hundred languages. So, for me, that's democratizing this knowledge.

And so back to your listener, to our listener's question, I could not agree more that if we had a critical mass of human beings on this planet equipped with these skills and this knowledge, we wouldn't just have more functional teams and better organizations. We'd have stronger communities. We would have more functional families and closer families. We might even have more functional governments. And when I dream really big, but you know, the barrier is high because A requires investment of time and energy more than anything. And B, some people aren't convinced. One of my most challenging professional career moments was on a top-rated podcast. And when we got off the podcast, one of the fellows who was a host said to me,

You know, every person on the planet should read this book. And I said I couldn't agree with you more. But if that's true, why are we having such a hard time getting any? This was when the book was first out. Why are we having so much trouble getting anybody to cover it? There is no coverage by the press and no podcasts wanting to learn more about it. Why are we having such a hard time? And he said, well, that's easy. If you'd written a book entitled "Three Surefire Ways to Get Rid of Toxic People in Your Life," you'd have a runaway bestseller.

But that's not who I am, and that's not what I taught, and that's not what I spent my life on. It's easy to connect with people who are just like you, think just like you, and have the same view on life. It's much harder to connect with people who are very different from you, and yet we can't afford to spend our entire lives with people who are just like us, or we end up with the world we have right now, incredibly polarized and toxic in so many places. So, thank you for that question and for allowing me to get on my little soapbox. I believe I was put on this planet to help people learn how to connect, especially people who want to connect across differences. That's my life's work. And sometimes it gets frustrating.

Roberto

Yeah. Thank you, Carole, for sharing this, and thank you, Carlos, for asking the question. So, there is another question here. Can you restate the six areas? Of course, we will give you; we'll add notes and everything. So we will do that. Thank you. Thank you. Now, we can put it in the chat. We see there are more questions. Thanks for the conversation. I'm curious to know what you found that people struggle most with building good quality interpersonal relationships. So what's the biggest challenge? And there's a second question: Have you noticed the difference between the challenges faced by men and women? This question is for Manita. And I would add one thing, at least for me, to connect with the question about anger.

Carole

Yes. Yes. Well, they're all related. The answer is all related. So, the thing that most people struggle with the most is the feely part of touchy-feely. So they call it touchy-feely because of such a big emphasis on feelings, not touching. OK. But most people have been socialized to leave feelings out of it, especially in business.

Furthermore, most men or many are socialized to know all that feeling stuff that's not manly. And it'll make you look weak if you express it. And, of course, women enter male-dominated arenas, and then they have the same, acculturated the same way. The only feeling that's somehow allowed for men often is anger, as long as it's expressed appropriately because that somehow is manly. But you know, what the research shows is that anger is quite often a secondary emotion. Usually, we feel angry. Underneath, anger is either fear or hurt. But those aren't manly. So, instead, we lead with anger. And I'll give you a great anecdote that I want to share at this juncture because one of the things our leaders and tech CEOs learn is

The power of being willing to speak feelings and not just anger. So, one of the CEOs from our recent cohort wrote to me and said that I found out on Friday afternoon that we would miss a significant software release deadline. And I spent all weekend furious with my team. And I spent all weekend thinking about how I would come on Monday morning and blast them. And you know, tell them that I felt like firing half of them, et cetera, which is not a feeling. I feel like firing somebody is not a feeling. They said, then I remembered what you taught us about anger. And I stopped and thought about what I was so angry about. And then I realized this is the internal antenna getting honed. What am I so angry about?

I realized I was afraid I was the only person taking this miss as seriously as I was because it could lead to a company's existential crisis. It was going to have such a negative impact. And I thought and was afraid I was the only person who saw that. So, I came in on Monday morning, and I shared that with them instead of blasting them all. I said I was getting ready to fire you all. And then I told them the whole thought process, and he said, so yeah, the bottom line is I'm scared. And I, and you know, and I figured rather than be angry at you, I would let you know. And he said he's a three-time entrepreneur. He said he has never had a team rally that quickly around a problem to solve it in his entire career. And I bet you that would not have happened if he got, if he comes on Monday morning and told them how they all were worthless and he didn't know why they were, he had fired them and, you know, was furious.

Roberto

Thank you, Carole, for sharing that. It's this brilliant example of what you said in the beginning about the appropriate vulnerability because he shared this and was going to do this. So I felt that, but then I thought about this, which is why I share it with you: blah, blah, wow.

Carole

Yes, that's exactly how we did it. And it was so powerful. So powerful.

Roberto

Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for asking this question.

Carole

Yeah. To her point, because men are even more socialized to avoid feelings and emotions, it's even harder for them. I think that's changing. I think younger men, this generation of young men like the MBAs now, find that men are much more open to the power and importance of emotions than they were 20 years ago.

Roberto

Definitely. I also agree, and hopefully, for a long time.

Carole

Yeah. Daniel Goldman's work on emotional intelligence helped a lot.

Roberto

Thank you. OK, let's see if we have any more questions. I'm very fresh one more time. We have little time. So yeah, there is one more. Let's see. Mercedes. Hola Mercedes. It's a pleasure to see you here. You reminded me how much strength and joy come from meaningful connection and open communication. Thank you. Thank you.

Carole

That's lovely. And by the way, there are categories of emotions. Two categories of emotions are connecting. Positive emotions like joy and happiness and care and love are connecting emotions. Vulnerable emotions like fear, hurt, envy, and jealousy are also connecting emotions because they make you vulnerable. Negative emotions like anger, irritation, and disgust are distancing emotions. So the more time you spend when you do express feelings, expressing feelings that are connecting rather than feelings that are distancing, that doesn't mean you should never say you're angry, but stop and ask yourself, is there something under the anger?

Because that might be more connecting than just expressing the anger, as my CEO found out.

Roberto

Yeah. Again, this is a reminder to turn on your internal antenna before going out and to see what's happening.

Last question from Hartley. When are you doing this work in a hierarchical organization? How can safety be created by sharing truth from all levels? Will it only happen if the top people model the work?

Carole

Yeah, that's an excellent question. So there's one crucial model we teach that we haven't discussed, called the 15 % rule, which is that we all have our comfort zone and say things that we don't even think twice about. Think of this as three concentric circles. The outermost circle is our danger zone, where we wouldn't say that in a million years. But there is a circle in the middle, our learning zone.

We have to step, and it's also our zone where we deepen relationships. We must step outside our comfort zone into our learning zone to be more effective interpersonally. However, my students used to say, "Carol, the minute I step out of my comfort zone, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone?" And so we came up with this idea of 15%.

Think a little bit outside your comfort zone. You'll feel it. You'll be like, this feels a little bit vulnerable, but it won't be so big that you'll freak yourself out or the other person out. And what's interesting about that is when you do that, and it goes well with the other person, with that person, you have a slightly larger comfort zone. It's expanded a bit; you can go 15 % from that. So that's one way to address hierarchy, even if you're in the lower power position.

If you're a leader and then in a higher power position, I already talked about how important it is for you to start and model. And think about this: nobody knows better how good a job they're doing managing than those who are being managed. I don't know how good a manager I am unless the people I manage tell me. So, if you learn how to provide feedback that lowers defensiveness, it doesn't guarantee they won't get defensive, but it reduces the probability. It heightens the likelihood of success. You might find that that turns things around in some cases.

Roberto

Absolutely. Yeah, you will learn more. They will open. Yeah. Thank you so much, Carol. I'm conscious of the time—it's almost an hour. I would like to ask you one more question to wrap up. So, if we had to choose, what would you like to see more and less of in the world?

Carole

I'd like to see a lot more curiosity and a lot less judgment.

That was easy. We'd have a vastly different world if we could move the needle on that.

Roberto

Absolutely. I cannot agree more. I cannot agree more.

Carole

Again, my apologies for having to be home and not being able to do this in a tranquil environment. But you know what? Hopefully, it will make me a real person over here.

Roberto

Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that. I hope the people connected enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for your question. These are excellent questions. They are very deep and to the point.

Carole

I echo that; beautiful questions. Thank you.

Roberto

Thank you. It was a pleasure, Carol. I hope everything is well for the time being. We will keep following your work and put all the links and everything in the chat to spread more. Yeah.

Carole

Likewise. Thank you. Thank you. Another thing I'll say about Leaders in Tech: We run programs like touchy-feely on steroids. They're all based on the Stanford curriculum that I taught for 20 years. People from all over the world sign up for them. You'll also have a link to our Leaders in Tech website in the show notes.

I hope to see some of you there. Thank you for coming, your wonderful questions, and your interest in the work.

Roberto

Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye-bye everyone.